MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
For more on the Trump administration's push to find fraud in Minnesota and other states, we reached out to Barbara McQuade. She's a former federal prosecutor and a professor at the University of Michigan Law School. She spoke with our co-host Leila Fadel.
LEILA FADEL, BYLINE: Barbara, the Trump administration is surging resources to Minnesota after a right-wing influencer, a vlogger, posted a video claiming to uncover fraud at day care centers. What do you make of this reaction to a vlogger?
BARBARA MCQUADE: It seems like a highly unusual way to go about law enforcement. It seems, frankly, a little more performative than it is effective. Ordinarily, when prosecutors open an investigation, it requires what's called predication - that is, some sort of credible allegation that a crime has been committed. Sometimes it comes from a whistleblower. Sometimes it comes from a victim. Sometimes it can even come from statistical analysis, such as when a provider is charging for more hours than there are in the day. But those are the kinds of things that might prompt an investigation. And then investigations are typically not acknowledged publicly so as to avoid compromising the investigation and smearing the reputation of someone who might not ultimately be charged with a crime. So this method of sort of publicly saying, we've seen a vlogger point out some fraud and so we're going after it, we're going to surge resources, is highly unusual.
FADEL: The president and others in the administration have singled out Minnesotans of Somali descent, saying fraud is rampant. I mean, the Department of Justice did charge dozens of defendants with pandemic fraud in Minnesota during the Biden administration. Many were convicted. Prosecutors announced more charges. But singling out a specific race, a specific ethnicity, a specific nationality, is there any reason to do that when you're investigating?
MCQUADE: Absolutely not. In addition to being a potential equal protection violation for singling out a community based on race, it's just not an effective way to enforce the law. You know, fraud is committed by all kinds of people in all kinds of places and all kinds of ways, and it should be investigated. We don't want taxpayer dollars being stolen and diverted from people it was intended to benefit. But the idea that we are going to profile a particular group just because some members of that group committed that crime is really foolish and ineffective. Plenty of fraud is committed by white, Christian males. We don't say, let's investigate all the white, Christian males on suspicion of fraud. That would be ridiculous and we can see that for what it is. The same is true, whether it's a Somali community or any other community.
FADEL: Now, the Small Business Administration is halting grants to Minnesota over the suspected fraud that I mentioned around COVID-era loans. Now, after this vlogger, Health and Human Services is freezing child care funds. In the words of HHS Deputy Secretary Jim O'Neill, quote, "we have turned off the money spigot and we are finding the fraud." If there is fraud on the scale that officials are claiming, are these steps the appropriate remedy?
MCQUADE: No. I mean, when you investigate crime, you have to do it on an individualized basis. You don't punish every actor in the state who is receiving federal funds. You know, it's sort of like the old teacher says she's going to punish everyone in the class because she caught one student speaking out of turn. It's incredibly unfair to everybody else who's playing by the rules. This will hurt many small businesses and many agencies receiving funds from HHS in the state of Minnesota. What we're seeing is this across-the-board, blanket punishment when nobody's been convicted of a crime yet.
FADEL: Well, in the case of the small businesses, there were some convictions in the Department of Justice investigation into the pandemic fraud. But in this child care stuff, this is based off these videos. What would be the right way to handle it, in your view?
MCQUADE: I think you begin an investigation into individual grant recipients to determine whether anybody is engaging in fraud. You know, the mere fact that a vlogger has posted something online alone I don't think is even sufficient predication to believe that a crime has been committed. I think that if there is evidence from someone who has firsthand information that someone is not running a facility, but we know that they are properly licensed, or that they are not using the funds as intended, then the way prosecutors go after investigations is through documents and witnesses, interviewing people, looking for documents to support that crime. But you don't start with the punishment and then investigate afterwards. And it seems to me that's what they're doing here by cutting off funds.
FADEL: Barbara McQuade is a former U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan and is currently a professor at the University of Michigan Law School. Thank you so much for your time and your insights.
MCQUADE: Thank you, Leila. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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