Home / University of Florida / UF Study Analyzes Negative Attitudes Toward Pit Bulls

UF Study Analyzes Negative Attitudes Toward Pit Bulls

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Milo, a 3-year-old pit bull rescued from a dog fight bust, was adopted by Hayley Reiter and her boyfriend about 8 months ago from the rescue organization Plenty of Pit Bulls. Reiter had such a positive adoption experience that she is now a volunteer with the organization. Photo courtesy of Hayley Reiter.
Milo, a 3-year-old pit bull rescued from a dog fight bust, was adopted by Hayley Reiter and her boyfriend about 8 months ago from the rescue organization Plenty of Pit Bulls. Reiter had such a positive adoption experience that she is now a volunteer with the organization. (Photo courtesy of Hayley Reiter.)

When Hayley Reiter and her boyfriend went to the pet store to pick up cat litter, they did not know they would also make a decision that would change their lives – and the life of one lucky dog.

“My boyfriend turned and looked at Milo and said ‘that’s our dog’,” she said.

Milo is one of 26 pit bulls that were rescued from a fighting ring in Apopka and found physically mistreated and malnourished, Reiter, 21, said.

He was adopted from Plenty of Pit Bulls, a Gainesville organization that advocates for pit bull adoptions, during a pet adoption day at a pet store. He has since returned to a healthy weight and has even befriended Reiter’s cat.

But not all pit bulls have the same fate.

For decades, pit bulls have been stigmatized as aggressive dogs and are subject to breed specific legislation, said Julie K. Levy, a University of Florida veterinary professor.

A new UF study published last month, conducted by Levy, tested animal shelter staff’s accuracy in correctly identifying dog breeds to examine how these factors affect the adoption rate of pit bulls, Levy said.

“It was no surprise that they were bad at it when compared to the DNA testing,” she said, “but they also didn’t agree with each other.”

According to Levy, the research team picked four animal shelters in Florida as well as 30 dogs from each shelter and four people from each shelter, one of which was a veterinarian. Each of the 120 dogs was photographed and the pictures were shown to the 16 people, who were asked to guess what he or she thought each dog’s breed was.

The research team then conducted DNA testing on each of the animals and matched the results with the guesses. Before guessing the dogs’ breeds, each person was asked to look at the dog and simply answer if it was one of the pit bull breeds or not.

The study, made possible by Maddie’s Shelter Medicine Program through the UF College of Veterinary Medicine, showed that respondents incorrectly identified a prominent breed in a shelter dog 73 percent of the time. Levy used the term “prominent breed” to refer to the breed that was most present in mixed-breed dogs.

Pit bull-type breeds were defined in the study as American pit bull terrier, American Staffordshire terrier, Staffordshire bull terrier, pit bull and their various mixes.

“People might take pit bulls home not knowing because it doesn’t look like one, and by the same token just because a dog looks like a pit bull doesn’t mean it is,” she said.

She said the study was motivated by the disadvantage pit bulls face when it comes to adoption, as a result of policies or legislation.

“If there is a rental property that doesn’t allow pit bulls, or house insurance says you can’t have pit bulls but people can’t identify them reliably then the whole system is erroneous,” Levy said.

In Florida, a 1989 law prohibits pit bull ownership in Miami-Dade County. Pit bull owners can be subjected to a $500 fine and court action will force the removal of the animal from the county.

As part of a bigger umbrella study, Levy said the pictures of the dogs from the study were posted online and dog experts across the country were invited to guess the dogs’ breeds.

More than 5,000 people participated, and more than 70 percent of the time, only 15 percent of the dogs were correctly identified.

Levy has been researching animal welfare issues for two decades and said pit bulls are often bred to the point of overpopulation.

Levy referenced a different study and added that when it comes to dog attacks, media outlets are less likely to mention the breed if the dog isn’t a pit bull. She also said that when the media identifies dogs as pit bulls, often later investigations will show that they are not.

“We are hoping to teach the public that they are just dogs and we should assess them individually rather than trying to stereotype them as a group,” she said. “There are some pit bulls that are poorly behaved. There are some nice pit bulls, but that is true for all breeds.”

Bayley O’Donnell, a veterinary technician at the Alachua County Human Society, (ACHS) said dogs have been returned to the Humane Society because of breed restrictions.

In one instance, she said a man returned a dog because his apartment complex has a policy prohibiting pit bulls and staff at the complex thought the dog looked like a pit bull, even though ACHS lists the dog as a boxer breed.

ACHS has included a line in its adoption papers that reads, “ACHS makes no guarantee as to its breed,” referring to its animals.

However, there are local groups, like Plenty of Pit Bulls, that advocate pit bull adoptions.

Hayley Reiter adopted Milo from Plenty of Pit Bulls about eight months ago. She said she had such a positive experience with the adoption process that she decided to become a volunteer for the organization.

She mentioned that one of the pit bulls that were rescued alongside Milo in the fight bust went on to be a therapy dog.

“How sweet my dog is made me want to advocate for these dogs who have such a bad rap through the media,” she said. “It made me want to show people how kindhearted they can be even after a situation of serious neglect and abuse.”

About Laura Cardona

Laura is a reporter for WUFT News and can be contacted by calling 352-392-6397 or emailing news@wuft.org.

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  • Mary Ann Redfern

    Same old, same old pit apologist bull that is getting thousands of people, pets and livestock animals maimed and killed each year in the USA. Proud of yourself, UF? Disgusting.

    • Mike Stein

      I know… All of these independent, scientific studies confirming the same things to be true It’s just horrible. Damn you scientific method for disagreeing with people who read things on the Internet! How dare you!

      • KaD

        Nothing ‘scientific’ about propaganda.

        • Mary Ann Redfern

          Don’t mind Mikey….he is a legend in his own mind!

          • HerhseyKisses

            …who the scientific community agrees with. But what do they know?

        • Mike Stein

          Right.. There’s nothing scientific about Dogsbite, Clifton, Etc.

          • e small

            You’re being ironic :) I just know it. Anyone who wants to visit DogsBite dot org, please do that. Look at the peer reviewed science articles. Decide for yourself.

          • shaedgirrl99_9

            Fuck DBO. That is all.

          • e small

            Pithy ;)

          • e small

            Very pithy comment below. I’m being blocked, but its really not a useful trick. I can always comment above! :)

      • MacaroonMacaroon

        Mike, the general public does not have enough exposure to peer-reviewed scientific literature to understand it, unfortunately. I think there is something scientists could do to help with that – if more scientists made their research easily accessible to the public (and perhaps also less jargon-y), I bet it would really increase interest and understanding among the public. I hope we see more public interest in legitimate scientific studies in the future :-).

        • HerhseyKisses

          Completely agree. It’s sad, really. And not entirely individuals’ faults either. That being said, people should take it upon themselves to find accurate information to read and learn from, even when it’s not spoon fed to them in a one page “article” with pictures. A lot of people are really just poorly representing themselves and making themselves look uneducated for not doing so. :/

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            Totally agree with you, Hershey. For some reason, people don’t feel compelled to learn to seek out factual information. I do think part of the problem is education – people believe whatever they read, even if it’s just an anecdote. I wrote a paper on this in grad school, I held both the public and the scientists responsible for the lack of scientific literacy in the general public :-)

        • e small

          I read peer reviewed science literature, for fun, and for my job as well. I do not think that pit bulls are safe dogs.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            Current peer-reviewed literature on pit bulls says that: a) pit bulls are dogs, not special or different from any other breed of dog b) pit bulls are no more likely to bite than any other breed c) BSL is ineffective and has not reduced the number of bites/attacks where it has been enacted d) an adult dog’s temperament does not change at the drop of a hat and is predictable through accurate understanding of dog body language.

            Pit bulls that demonstrate aggressive behaviors toward humans are against the breed standard, and should probably be euthanized. Just because ALL terrier groups have high numbers of dogs with prey drive and often have dog-dog aggression does not mean these dogs are people-eaters.

          • shaedgirrl99_9

            OMG…..Thank you for that. Most intellegent thing I’ve read on here yet…

          • e small

            I have looked at several peer reviewed articles that say that pit bull breed is the largest variable in severe attacks.

            Can you give me a specific paper to see? Just the Title and the authors, or just the title really. I can look it up and we can discuss.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            The ASPCA references several peer-reviewed papers in their position statement on BSL: https://www.aspca.org/about-us/aspca-policy-and-position-statements/position-statement-breed-specific-legislation

          • MacaroonMacaroon
          • MacaroonMacaroon
      • HerhseyKisses

        It’s not like the scientific method has ever discovered or confirmed anything helpful anyway! ;-)

        • MacaroonMacaroon

          Right! No vaccines to prevent deadly diseases, no antibiotics, no potable water… science is the worst ;-).

          • HerhseyKisses

            God forbid it try to make advancements, either! Let’s all restrict ourselves to what we’ve been told, despite much better proven alternatives! Being stagnant is the best. Much gets accomplished.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            That’s the best thing about science – we can revise and update our knowledge of anything as new information is acquired!

          • Mike Stein

            You don’t really want to go the vaccine route with the anti-pit bull folks. Half of them are anti vaxxers, the other half compared pit bull ownership to anti-vaxxers. Hilarity ensued.

      • Mary Ann Redfern

        Keep on pimping for NCRC. They love it, and they get richer from the plight of the victims of pit bulls and the pit bulls themselves. Aren’t you proud to spout the myths of such an orgnaization. Animal Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaarm Foundation…..yeehaaaaaaaw.

      • e small

        What things are your independent scientific studies confirming to be true? Its not a simple thing for a science study to confirm ANYTHING.

        The ones I am reading suggest that breed is a statistically significant variable in severity of attack.

  • Beth Kehoe

    Phoenix Children’s Hospital did a study entitled “Morbidity of pediatric dog bites: A case series at a level one pediatric trauma
    center.”

    Results

    Of 650 dog bite incidents, 282 met the criteria for
    inclusion in the trauma database. Median age was 5 years (range, 2 months to
    17 years) and 55% (154/282) of patients were male. Pit bulls were most
    frequently responsible, accounting for 39% (83/213) of incidents in which dog
    breed was documented. Fifty-three percent (150/282) of dogs belonged to the
    patient’s immediate or extended family. Sixty-nine percent (194/282) of patients
    required operative intervention: 76% laceration repairs, 14% tissue transfers,
    and 2% neurosurgical interventions. The most severe injuries were depressed
    skull fractures, intracranial hemorrhage, laryngotracheal transection, and
    bilateral orchiectomy. Median length of stay was 1 day (range, 0 to 25 days).
    There were no mortalities.

    Conclusions

    Pediatric dog bites span a wide range of ages, frequently
    require operative intervention, and can cause severe morbidity. Dog familiarity
    did not confer safety, and in this series, Pit bulls were most frequently
    responsible. These findings have great relevance for child safety.

    http://www.jpedsurg.org/article/S0022-3468%2814%2900584-3/abstract

    • Mike Stein

      So to recap as it relates to this study. 29.4% of the traumatic bites were documented as being from pit bulls.

      This leads to two related conclusions:

      1.) 70% of these traumatic bites weren’t from pit bulls.
      2.) If the 30% that were documented as pit bulls were documented as such based on visual ID, it’s possible that 75% of them, or 22.5%, weren’t pit bulls at all.

      In short, we can safely say 7% of these traumatic dog bites were from pit bulls, which seems to be in line with the overall population, and likely underrepresented.

      • Beth Kehoe

        So let’s recap the UF Study: The pictures were shown to 16 people.

        • Mike Stein

          And in the other ones the pictures were shown to several thousand.

          Each individual study has a margin of error, which is no doubt included in the documents. However, when multiple studies all arrive at the same conclusion, that margin of error is greatly diminished. It’s not a question of one study coming to the same conclusion – it’s a question of multiple studies coming to the same conclusion.

          This is no different than the overwhelming majority of studies that show breed isn’t a factor in dog attacks, or that BSL constantly fails. You can pull individual sentences all you want to make your case on the internet, but the actual scientific data isn’t even close.

        • Mike Stein

          Question: in the Phoenix Hospital Study, or the Texas Maiming study, how many people saw those dogs? One? Two? What were their qualifications? Did the studies control for those qualifications?

          16 qualified individuals (including 4 vets) attempting to identify breed of dog seems to be a much stronger case than “unknown”.

          • e small

            Were the staff at Pheonix Hospital responsible for naming breed of dog via visual identification? Don’t you think they may had had some other data to go upon? Owner report, ect?

        • Travelmate

          First, these DNA tests are not accurate and they like to spit out a few very rare breeds so often it defies logic that so many extremely rare breeds would be out and about randomly mixing with so many other breeds.

          Second, how did they come by this sample of dogs? These are almost all multi-generational mutts that are supposedly three or more breeds, this is not a random sample of dog breeds that would just end up at a typical shelter.

          It could very well be that these dogs were handpicked because they had so many breed mixtures that it was much more difficult to ID. We don’t know how the dogs were sampled. But we don’t even know that because we have no way of knowing how accurate the DNA tests were in the first place.

          People do not need to be able to identify a dog that is so mixed that no pedigree is readily discernable, we need to know if they can say pit bull, pit bull mix, or non-pit bull. And when THAT test was performed by the ASPCA, shelter workers could tell if a dog had pit bull in it 97% of the time.

          This is just agenda driven junk science.

          • e small

            I don’t think it is agenda driven junk science. There is a question we are all trying to answer. That question is: Are pit bull more dangerous than other breeds of dogs?

            How are we going to find answers if we don’t look at the question at hand?

            DNA tests do work, but care is needed in their interpretation. Rather than discounting studies, why don’t you read them and come up some specific questions?

            This is an excerpt from an article, already 4 years old. Genetics are moving quickly. A research will pay attention to accuracy and reliability of any tests used in a study, and these will be reported in the methods and results sections of the paper in question.

            Dog breed genetic tests put to the test.

            Science is solid but results aren’t precise

            July 10, 2012
            By: Edie Lau
            For The VIN News Service

            The science of dog-breed detection may be solid, but that doesn’t mean any given DNA test is reliable. Its accuracy depends upon the quality of information upon which the analysis is based.

            For example, when the Canine Heritage test debuted in early 2007 as the first such test on the consumer market, it detected 38 breeds. Results for any dog with a background outside of those 38 breeds would have been inconclusive.

            Wisdom Panel launched in fall 2007 with 134 breeds. Now Canine Heritage is up to 120 breeds, while Wisdom Panel lists 203.

      • e small

        The data is a conservative estimate. Its not certain that more weren’t from pit bulls.

        If the data is this conservative, then its likely that the dogs were pit bulls.

        There is no conclusive DNA testing for breed. Its all visual identification in the end.

        It sounds like you’d rather be ‘right’ than do science.

        • Mike Stein

          The data is a high end estimate. It’s likely that less were from pit bulls. This is because its been repeatedly shown that visual ID is wrong up 80% of the time. While DNA testing for dogs isn’t conclusive, the 90% accuracy rate is significantly higher than the 20-25% for visual id, therefore it is a beyond significantly more reliable form of identification.

          No dog will have a 0% attack rate. Generally speaking, you can expect the attack rate to be inline with the population, with some normalization for additional risk factors, such as poverty, use as protection, etc.

          Yes, no study is conclusive. This is why it is particularly noteworthy that the studies uniformly demonstrate that breed is not the problem – ownership is.

          There. Fixed that for you.

          • e small

            If visual ID may not be perfect, but it is what we have. It is the method used in law courts. This is from DogsBite dog org, for anyone who would like to read more:

            “For 25-years appellate courts have ruled that a dog owner of ordinary intelligence can identify a pit bull (See: Ohio v. Anderson, 1991). In addition to this, the high courts have ruled that scientific precision is not required when determining the breed (See: Colorado Dog Fanciers v. Denver, 1991). Yet still the myth persists ad nauseam — pushed by the Pit Bull Propaganda Machine, pit bull advocates, animal groups and more — that it is impossible to identify a pit bull.

            Readers are familiar with this myth, which has variations like, “it is impossible to identify a pit bull” and “pit bulls can’t be identified,” and the mothership motto, “there is no such thing as a pit bull.” In a series of 8 memes, directly quoting high court rulings, we highlight how the high courts have ruled on this subject. The courts have ruled that a pit bull is a breed of dog with distinctive traits that can be recognized by its physical appearance by a dog owner of ordinary intelligence.

            “Pit bull dogs possess unique and readily identifiable physical and behavioral traits which are capable of recognition both by dog owners of ordinary intelligence…” – Ohio v. Anderson, Supreme Court of Ohio (1991)”

          • Mike Stein

            You’re right, just look at Aurora, Colorado. Their animal control performs visual id, then they go to court, and they lose something like 70-80% of their cases because the visual id is proved to be wrong by DNA, conflicts within the visual ID, etc.

            You can quote a 25 year old court precedent all you want, but there isn’t a court in the land that won’t overrule a visual ID with a DNA test.

          • e small

            Of course, an accurate DNA test will overrule most evidence. But the word accurate is very important here.

            In a paper published in the journal Science in 2004, Elaine Ostrander and her colleagues reported a technique they developed for identifying dog breeds based on genetic markers.

            The markers the researchers use aren’t genes. They are repeating sequences of DNA known as microsatellites. The commercial tests use a different kind of marker known as single-nucleotide polymorphisms — abbreviated SNPs and pronounced like “snips” — that are small mutations within the genome. Whether using microsatellites or SNPs, the markers, taken together, form signatures particular to each breed.”

            Both testing types can produce odd results, the microsatellite approach may be open to interpretation..and it isn’t inexpensive. DNA is not a panacea.

            We’re getting into what a ‘breed’ is here, and its more complex than most people think, and more ambiguous from a genetics point of view. Where I’m ending though is on the visual markers of a breed, which people can and do identify. I’m not talking about those tricky online test made by pit bull advocates, but life.

            Identifying a dog breed is a similar cognitive process to identifying our individual family members in a crowd, or identifying our dogs in a dog park. People of normal intelligence are capable of it.

          • Mike Stein

            And you’re basing that on the conclusions of a 26 year old court case that predates all of the uniform science that says “a person of ordinary intelligence.. in fact, experts who deal with dogs every day can not visually ID mixed breed dogs with any accuracy”

          • e small

            I have a conflicting study here. Anyone interested in looking it up in its entirely can do so on DogsBite dot org.

            “ASPCA Breed Identification Study

            Instead of taking readers down the mind numbing path of the volume of pro-pit bull penned papers, quasi-studies and surveys which purport that breed identification, in the case of pit bulls, is impossible, why not share results from a recent ASPCA study showing the exact opposite? The ASPCA, a national animal welfare group, is a heavy pusher of the “breed misidentification” theme, as are other national animal welfare groups, including the HSUS and Best Friends Animal Society.

            In September, the ASPCA released study findings showing that visual breed identification by intake staff at Richmond SPCA agreed with DNA results 96% of the time when identifying pit bulls and their mixes. The study was “supposed” to show that if a DNA test result card was placed on the cage of the dog, instead of a card labeled “pit mix,” the dog would be more adoptable. This was based on the faulty assumption that intake staff would often incorrectly identify pit bulls.

            The dogs were divided into two groups, one with cards labeled “pit-mix” or “pit-type,” the other with DNA test result cards indicating a pit bull as an American Staffordshire terrier, Staffordshire bull terrier or American bulldog. There was little difference in adoption rates.3 Further, because the ASPCA assumed that visual identification by workers would be much lower, they also assumed that the DNA results would not be jam-packed with bully-type breeds, like they were in the study.

            Due to this, the ASPCA could not even test the hypothesis of their study: Looks like an X, but is really a Y.
            The first finding I am sharing here impacted our ability to answer some of the questions we were hoping to answer in a significant way. We found out just how well Richmond SPCA staff did in visually identifying dogs likely to have Staffordshire terrier, American Staffordshire terrier or American bulldog as at least 25% of their breed make-up. Out of the 91 dogs, only 4 dogs had none of these breeds in their DNA, and 57% had one of those breeds as the primary breed … but at least at the Richmond SPCA, with a specific look and type, staff were quite good at breed identification—correctly identifying 96% of the dogs in the study as having at least 25% of the breeds noted above … As we anticipated that more of the dogs would not have bully-type breeds in their reports, we were not able todive into the question of “he looks like a X but he really is a Y.” – Dr. Emily Weiss”

          • Mike Stein

            Or anyone can go to the ASPCA website, read the study, learn that this wasn’t a study on breed ID, but instead an experiment to learn if people were more willing to adopt dogs if they knew it was a pit bull mix. Then they could ask why dogsbite must continually lie and mislead in order to try to make their case to people who read long winded comment sections on the Internet.

            http://www.aspcapro.org/blog/2013/09/25/bully-this—-results-are-in…

          • e small

            Breed Misidentification Propaganda Explained:

            “Due to the endless onslaught of pro-pit bull and animal welfare groups who proclaim that a pit bull cannot be identified by it’s owner, family members, animal control officers, police officers, the media and more, we located as many photographs of fatally attacking dogs in 2013 as we could. Of the 32 total recorded deaths last year, 19 fatalities1 had identification photographs of the attacking dogs. 17 of these fatalities, 89%, involved pit bulls and their mixes.

            Of all fatalities with photographs, 53% (10) were provided by the media, 32% (6) were provided by the dog’s owner or family member and 16% (3) were located on social media websites. Notably, 100% of the fatal dog attacks in South Carolina (3) had identification photographs. In California, 4 of the 5 fatal occurrences had identification imagery. Of the 13 deaths without photographs, about a third involved the dogs being shot dead on scene and another third did not involve pit bulls.

            News reports pertaining to fatal dog attacks — without identification photographs — are nearly always multi-sourced. This means that multiple parties have identified the dogs including, but not limited to: animal control officers, police officers, other first responders, the dog’s owner or family members, and even veterinarians. Pro-pit bull and animal welfare groups would have the public and lawmakers believe that each of these cited sources is invalid when a pit bull is involved.

            “Breed identification” of fatal dog attacks that do not involve pit bulls, however, are accepted at face value by pit bull promoters.

            Face value meaning that other breeds of dogs that kill human beings have no identification requirements beyond a simple description of the dog, sourced or otherwise, in a news article. That alone is sufficient to pro-pit bull and animal welfare groups. The “breed misidentification” propaganda machine that roars beneath fatal pit bull attacks is limited only to pit bulls and their mixes.2 The “loyal” dog breed that kills more Americans than all other dog breeds combined”

            This can be found by anyone reading at DogsBite dot org, along with a study by the ASPCA on Breed Identification with some interesting results ;)

      • StillStandingNow

        Y’all pit bull owners proudly call them pit bulls whenever they are not attacking, and when you’re inbreeding and selling them.

        • Mike Stein

          What kind of obsessive goes back and necroes 2 month old threads. Seriously?
          Ps – the inbreeding backyard breeders? Equally happy to see them go.

    • MacaroonMacaroon

      The impact factor on this journal last year was a 1.387, and the 5 year impact factor is a 1.539…

  • Beth Kehoe

    San Antonio Hospital did a study entitled “Mortality, Mauling, and Maiming
    by Vicious Dogs.” “Conclusions: Attacks by pit bulls are associated with higher
    morbidity rates, higher hospital charges, and a higher risk of death than are
    attacks by other breeds of dogs. Strict regulation of pit bulls may
    substantially reduce the US mortality rates related to dog bites.” http://www.terrierman.com/mortality-mauling-vicious-dogs.pdf

  • Banallpits

    Next they can analyze negative attitudes toward pedophiles! Or negative attitudes toward wife beaters! Or negative attitudes toward murderers!

    • HerhseyKisses

      Hi,

      In my opinion, the title of this news article is semi-misleading compared to what the scientific article cited in the news article actually studied. Negative attitudes weren’t studied, rather breed identification were. Here is the link the the peer-reviewed article if you would like to see it for yourself! http://sheltermedicine.vetmed.ufl.edu/library/research-studies/current-studies/dog-breeds/

      • HerhseyKisses

        Basically it is saying that regulatory decisions based on dog breeds is flawed as visual identification of dog breeds itself is highly flawed. Check it out! Feel free to share any peer-reviewed articles yourself! :)

      • Banallpits

        http://blog.dogsbite.org/2015/08/who-can-identify-pit-bull-dog-owner-of-ordinary-intelligence.html?m=1

        If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it’s probably a duck. We all know what a damn pit bull looks like. Just look for the ugly block head, the beady little demonic, soul-less eyes, and the creepy gaping Joker grins!

        • HerhseyKisses

          Actually, there are issues with breed identification in all of these times! And usually, free vet clinics are for low-income families or rescued dogs (and cats) regardless of breed (and animal since cats are included!). Sure, there are some dogs that are easily identifiable as an ABPT, just like any other breed. But just like other mixed breeds, there are a ton of identification discrepancies.

          My dog is a huge mystery. No one knows what she is. I have heard guesses including Boxer, Lab, Plott Hound, Pit Bull, Beagle, and Pointer. My dog is not the only mix breed subject to this questioning, as evidenced in the study as an assortment of dogs were included beyond just “aggressive breeds”. For example, my friend has a dog that they know is a Golden Retriever mixed with an Australian Shepherd. However, she receives random guesses all the time as to what her dog is, just as I receive with mine. Nowhere is it being argued that breed misidentification only occurs with Pit Bulls, so not sure what point you are trying to convey. The study clearly uses an assortment of mixed breed dogs. Once you find a scientific article on it versus a blog called “dogs bite” please share!

          Hint: any URL that has the message you are trying to prove in it probably is not a neutral, scientific source.

        • MacaroonMacaroon

          Beady, soulless eyes…

          • HerhseyKisses

            Oh scary!! Wait a minute….is that justified fear? Or just ignorance?

          • Banallpits

            Yep – can’t get rid of those even when they’re mixed with something else. Those demonic eyes are always the giveaway!

          • HerhseyKisses

            Banallpits,
            What trait exactly are you characterizing as demonic? Color? Shape? Pupil? I’m just lost by your reasoning. Would love to see a picture of your eyes! Does this Border Collie have demon eyes?

          • Banallpits

            Do you seriously have to ask that question? Even people who don’t necessarily even have a strong opinion on pit bulls comment on their eyes. I heard people talking about them in a conversations that I wasn’t even involved in and saying things like “something about their eyes makes me not trust them”, or “their eyes make them look so mean”. Really, you can’t see that? They do NOT have normal dog eyes and they are creepy!
            http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/exposure/content/photo/photo/2080970_a-strong-breed_u4otpkuoohegc34cxym6cgqbeyoxpy7q62c4u66siw3t6qwph3oq_757x567.jpg

            http://sworrall.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/06/30/pitbull.jpg

            http://bunkblog.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Pit-Bull1.jpg – especially gross!

            And you can’t cross that evil look out of them – http://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/2015-01/28/22/enhanced/webdr01/enhanced-10441-1422503028-7.png

            Border Collies have normal round eyes!

          • Gatorgirl

            I have been a volunteer with A pit bull rescue for almost a year now. We are positioned outside a pet store where pit-people and nonpit- people alike pass by and share their stories. I have not once heard a comment like this about their eyes.

          • Banallpits

            Do you really think that is something they would say to a bunch of pit nutters pimping these beasts?

          • Gatorgirl

            I have also never heard of a hospitalizing or life-ending encounter with any of the dogs that we “pimp out”. I have seen horrible things the other way around though

          • Banallpits
          • MacaroonMacaroon

            We do. We are here to support adopters in numerous ways, including offering free weekly obedience classes, and we are a resource for adopters for the life of their adopted dog.

          • Banallpits

            “Being there to support adopters” is in no way tracking the dogs for their entire lives.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            We stay in contact with adopters, and it’s in our contract that dogs must be returned to the rescue if they cannot be kept by the adopter. It’s not hard to understand that we would know if something was awry.

          • Banallpits

            Unless you are calling hundreds of people regularly and doing home visits, you do NOT know what’s going on with these dogs. It is also in my buyer’s contract that I must return my dog to my breeder if he needs to be rehomed. While I would honor that if it ever became necessary, she has NO WAY of knowing if I did or not! Just like you have no way of knowing if 3 years down the road, an adopted pit kills a dog, becomes too aggressive to keep, bites a family member or whatever, and they decide to have it euthanized, dump it at another shelter, dump it out out somewhere, sell it on Craigslist, or pass it along to someone else. Unless they tell you, or you get lucky enough that someone scans for a chip, you don’t know. Or, you get sued.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            We do home visits prior to adoption to ensure a good placement. I have babysat several of my previous foster dogs regularly, so I know exactly where they are and what they are like. And we aren’t a high-volume group, so we are pretty familiar with the majority of our adopters.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            I think that’s going to be the name of my rescue, if I ever decide to form my own group. “Pit Nutters.” Or maybe “Pit Pimpers.” :-p

          • HerhseyKisses

            “Creepy” is an opinion. The comments I have heard about my dog regarding her eyes by random people in public, not people from an advocacy group are as follows:

            “Her eyes are so expressive.”

            “I feel like she’s looking into my soul; so sweet.”

            “Beautiful amber eyes.”

            “You can tell she’s smart, look at those eyes.”

            We could go back and forth with varying opinions all day, Banallpits. But to my knowledge there is no correlation anywhere in any study in any country that links eye characteristics or opinions of eye appearance in dogs to aggressive tendencies. Let me know if you find one though!

          • Banallpits

            I never mentioned a correlation between evil eyes and aggressive tendencies. Not once. I said it is easy to identify a pit bull or pit mix by their big ugly block heads, their creepy little dead eyes, and their big gaping Joker grins. They are very unique in their look. This dog was called a “Golden Lab mix” and it killed a baby. Just look at its face and eyes! Anyone can clearly see that is a Golden PIT mix! This is a fatality that was not attributed to a pit mix but it clearly should have been. Intentional mislabeling, particularly by shelters is VERY, VERY common. But you can always tell…
            http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1065709!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_970/lucky23n-2-web.jpg

            http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/04/20/article-2132912-12B17AE3000005DC-31_634x478.jpg

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            Looks like a golden mix, tan, very fluffy coat, but who knows. Does not look like a pit bull mix. Do you think he looks like a pit bull just because he has amber eyes and a pink nose?

          • Banallpits

            I think it looks like a pit bull because it F-ING LOOKS LIKE A PIT BULL. It isn’t any specific thing but a combination of those things that make a pit bull look like a pit bull. He has the very clear characteristics of a pit bull, just like he has the clear characteristics of a Golden Retriever. This dog LOOKS demonic and there is no other non-pit type breed that could make a Golden Retriever look evil! You are just in denial if you can not see the pit bull in this dog. Even pit fanciers have admitted the dog looks like a pit mix!

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            How does he look like a pit bull? He is super fluffy. I would be inclined to go with golden, maybe golden/spaniel, based on the short ears and ear position. No pit bull to be seen…

          • Banallpits

            Funny, you aren’t denying the obvious traits of a Golden, but are mystified by the obvious pit bull traits in it. He has the ugly eyes of a pit bull. He has a head like a pit bull. And in the pic with his mouth open, you can see he has the freakishly wide/far back mouth of a pit bull. I guess you’re also stumped by how anyone knows these are pit mixes as well?

            http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_content_width/hash/9b/44/9b443c9e7ab3f2b7c106e7971e04ac16.jpg?itok=fRuNkh5h

            https://retrieverman.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/pit-bull-golden-retriever.jpg

            http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-CbI7a9xgkHE/UVsRQeiI8AI/AAAAAAAAIDs/hPzG0Em9vNM/s1600/bandit_545906.jpg

            https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/47/c8/d5/47c8d5a21e6252521cdfddd5927b1b47.jpg

            Not really sure if this one is real or photo shopped but jesus – http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-drpPKOwLPrM/TV3hTXm7oZI/AAAAAAAAAZI/68yjnbHDT-Q/s1600/359388813.jpg For the love of all that’s holy, I hope to hell that is a photoshop job!

            https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/bowwowtimes/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/mixed-breed-dogs-pitsky-1.jpg

            http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_content_width/hash/3c/ba/3cbac1242145bca254a6748965a52e42.jpg?itok=jSow71H8

            http://www.goodpitbulls.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/pit-pinscher.jpg

            It literally does not matter what they are crossed with, the ugly ALWAYS comes through. I actually saw a Maltese pit bull mix in a vaccination clinic line the other day! Even a freaking adorable Maltese could not override the pit bull genes! It was about 30 lbs, fluffly/scruffy and soft looking, and then it turned its head and OMG! Hideous looking thing!

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            The poodle is very clearly photoshopped. The last dog is a doberman mix. Puppy one looks like a basset mix. Puppy two, spaniel mix (and so adorable). I would call puppy three a pit bull/basset mix. Puppy four, an aussiedoodle. Dog five, husky mix, dog six, pit bull mix.

          • Banallpits

            They are ALL pit bull mixes. Every one of them. And in every one, the pit is obvious.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            Have they been genetically tested to confirm pit bull DNA? Not every mixed breed dog is a pit bull.

          • Banallpits

            There is no reliable test for “pit bull”. We don’t need DNA tests because we have eyeballs.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a4CDvK868w

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            So, no. We actually don’t know what these dogs are. Mixed breed dogs. 1/3 of them look like pit bull mixes.

          • Banallpits

            You can play the denial game all you want but we both know they are pit mixes, as does anyone else that looks at them.

            This is from an actual pit bull owner:
            “Even a casual sniff of someone’s pant leg can be frightening from an 80-pound beady-eyed pit bull.”
            http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/practicing-pit-etiquette-puppyhood

            http://www.thestranger.com/blogs/slog/2015/06/29/22467244/alaskan-pit-bull-almost-killed-by-brown-bear – “So, what purpose does it serve, socially speaking, to encourage the ownership of an animal that has such mean and beady eyes, a big tooth-packed and tongue-thick mouth, and a personality that tends to be very aggressive?”

            Another pro pit site: With their sturdy muscular bodies, squared heads and beady eyes, pit bull puppies capture attention wherever they go. – http://informationabout-dogs.blogspot.com/2013/01/interesting-facts-about-pit-bull-puppies.html

            Another pit owner referring to his kid killer as a “beady eyed little creep” – https://www.reddit.com/r/pitbulls/comments/25hp9x/my_beady_eyed_little_creep/

            It’s a given they have beady eyes. This is a brief explanation of why we consider beady eyes to look “evil” or “demonic”. It’s human nature, or instinctual to be uncomfortable with beady eyes (on human or animal)
            http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=52252

            http://luckyottershaven.com/2014/11/11/the-distinctive-look-of-psychopathy/ – “In some cases, psychopaths show a distinctive smirk or sneer. Their eyes may twinkle, but it’s a hard, cold, glittering twinkle that is malevolent and creepy. Behind the twinkle, the eyes are still reptilian and dead. You may see this look when they think they’ve pulled one over on you–or perversely, when you’ve pulled one over on them–and they are ready to kill you either literally or figuratively. Here are some examples of this look:”

            It is accepted by pit bull owners and pit bull haters alike that these monsters have beady eyes. It is also accepted that we associate beady eyes with evil, ergo, pit bulls have a creepy, demonic eyes that give many people the heeby-jeebies!

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            None of my pit bull foster dogs (nor my adopted dog) have “mean, beady eyes.”

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            Puppy one is a wrinkly, sloppy basset mix. Look at those feet. Droopy eyes and ears. Basset.

          • Banallpits

            When I say pit MIX, that does mean that YES, there IS ANOTHER BREED involved! That’s what a “mix” means. Why is it you accept that you can easily identify the other breeds by their features such as the feet, ears, and droopy eyes, but deny we can identify pit bulls by their obvious characteristics as well.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            What is obviously pit bull about him? The blue color?

          • Banallpits

            Now I realize you are just f-ing with me.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            Well, it’s not his shape or feet, or long, houndy ears, or jowly lips, or droopy eyes.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            I doubt it was a maltese/pit bull mix. Also, again to each their own – Maltese are not my kind of dog at all, I would never like one, aesthetically.

          • Banallpits

            It was a Maltese pit bull mix because the Maltese was there. The mutant was being held by a girl about 9. I said, OMG, what was that pit bull mixed with. She said “Maltese”. I then said: “What kind of idiot would ever breed a pit bull and Maltese”? The man that I guess was her father piped in and said: “Me – I am the idiot”. I replied: “you certainly are” and walked away.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            I hate backyard breeders and people that breed mixed breed dogs. Anyone that wants a mixed breed dog (and often, purebred dogs) can easily find what they are looking for at their local shelter.

          • Banallpits

            I suspect they had both dogs in the homes as pets and both were unaltered. They were Hispanic in a bad area. I doubt it was an intentional breeding as much as being irresponsible owners.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            Well I also hate people that don’t take appropriate care of their dogs. Please don’t lump people of Hispanic ethnicity into a “bad area, bad dog owner” category. Being Hispanic has nothing to do with how one cares for their pets.

          • Banallpits

            Culturally, Hispanics have an issue with cutting off their dog’s balls.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            That’s not a cultural issue to people of Hispanic ethnicity. Lack of spay/neuter probably is correlated with people of low socioeconomic status, and minority ethnicities and ancestries are prominent in impoverished communities. Maybe they didn’t spay/neuter because they aren’t educated. Or cannot afford it.

          • Banallpits

            I’m not interested in tip-toeing around political correctness. They had a ghetto hound and a small dog and I’m sure this tattooed up thug looking jackass wouldn’t hear of neutering or spaying his dog. I’m sure he wasn’t educated and if didn’t have money to care for his dogs, he shouldn’t have gotten them. The spay neuter rate for normal breeds is upwards of 80 percent (85, 87, or something like that). The spay/neuter rate for bull owners is something like 20%, this despite all the pit bull specific free spay neuters (funny, then they can easily identify pit bulls by their physical characteristics and without DNA tests). One story I read not too long ago told of an organization that had a large amount of money returned to them that they had donated to fund free pit bull spay/neuters, because of “lack of interest”! They literally could not use the money because people didn’t WANT their pit bulls altered, even for free!

            It IS a cultural thing for Hispanics not to neuter their dogs (this is a well-known and easily verifiable fact – even Cesar Milan has addressed it) and no amount of “educating” or free neutering will change their mind.

            http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/for-the-love-of-balls-why-dont-mexicans-spay-or-neuter-their-pets-6421921

          • GatorGirl

            You are obviously at very hateful person and are prone to make harsh generalizations based on appearances.

          • Banallpits

            Well then, I guess Cesar Milan, a Hispanic, is also a hateful person and is prone to make harsh generalizations based on appearances. He has stated publicly that culturally, Hispanics do not alter their pets.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            It’s not about being politically correct, it’s about being offensive. How do you know what my ethnicity or ancestral background is?

            Most spay/neuter clinics, even those geared toward pit bull type dogs, will spay/neuter/vaccinate any breed.

            Cesar Milan is a dud and has no respect for dog body language, and has a terrible training reputation. I would take anything he says with a grain of salt.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            Does this dog look like a pit mix to you?

          • HerhseyKisses

            Still struggling to see the “ugly coming through”!

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            What beautiful dogs! :-)

          • HerhseyKisses

            I think so too, MacaronMacaroon! I am really struggling to see the “ugly” here! To me they all just look like sweet, normal dogs.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            What do you mean by “looks demonic?” I’m not in denial. Nothing about this dog looks like a pit bull. This heartworm positive dog was rejected by lab rescue for not looking enough like a lab. Our group rescued him, because we love helping good dogs in need. Does he look like a pit bull?

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            So other dogs with variable eye color and nose leather color don’t look demonic to you? I can’t see the difference in the amber eyes of a Vizsla vs the amber eyes of a pit bull, or the chartreuse eyes of an Aussiedoodle and the chartreuse eyes of a pit bull.

          • Banallpits

            Well, some people can’t see the difference between Michaelango painting and Bed, Bath, and Beyond art either. I can’t help you there.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            My undergraduate minor is in classics, so I am not one of those people.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            These dogs have the same color/shape eyes. Neither looks demonic. They just have gold eyes.

          • HerhseyKisses

            Also, based on your assessment of not creep = “normal round eyes,”
            would you call Blood Hounds creepy as well? And therefore they must naturally be aggressive, right?

          • Banallpits

            Nothing creepy about Bloodhound eyes. The are lidded and droopy underneath, like Bassets, and generally illicit “awwwws”. Nothing demonic about them. Only pit bull eyes are the things of nightmares! And don’t even get me started on those gaping Joker mouths! I cannot for the life of me figure out how anyone can find these mutants attractive. I cannot even imagine looking at a face like that every day! I would have to sleep with one eye open! They are just such hideous looking dogs.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            I hate the look of dogs with droopy eyes. They often have entropion, and droopy eyes are usually accompanied by copious amounts of drool from a droopy mouth. To each their own.

          • Banallpits

            I hate the look of droopy eyes as well. I hate two different colored eyes. I positively cannot stand blue eyes on a dog. I could never have a Basset, or an Aussie. But not liking the looks of eyes is very different from finding the eyes creepy and demonic. I don’t like the other types of eyes, but they aren’t like staring into the face of Satan himself!

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            I can’t see what you are calling “demonic.” If you cannot put a descriptor involving actual shape/color or some other tangible factor, no one knows what you are talking about.

          • Banallpits

            How about “reptilian” – does that term suit you better. We all know what demonic eyes look like. We can recognize what “dead” eyes look like. And that dog has them, as do almost all pits.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            No, reptilian isn’t an effective descriptor when dog pupils/eyes are not the same shape as reptile pupils/eyes. And no, clearly no one here know what you are talking about when you say “demonic” or “dead” eyes.

          • Banallpits

            It is a common descriptor of pit bull eyes so plenty of people know what I’m talking about.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            I’ve never heard it and I’ve interacted with hundreds of people with my dog in our local community. It is common for people to make ridiculous statements and then other people like to jump on the bandwagon without actually understanding what they’re agreeing to. It’s just like politics, or religion.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            Tell me about it, she is terrifying. I will probably refrain from allowing her to sleep in my bed tonight, based on all the factual and scientific info I have read on this thread tonight from anti pit bull folks :-p.

          • Banallpits

            You should refrain from allowing her to sleep in your bed because that is f*&king NASTY! Gross! Darla Napore would probably advise against it if she could!

          • Gatorgirl

            Everyone I know allows their dog to sleep in their bed. If she trusts her dog then why is it any of your concern?

          • Banallpits

            I never said it was my concern – I said it’s nasty. Sleep in dog hair, dander, whatever dirt, grit, and germs fall off their feet, dried fecal matter from their butt, slobber and urine drips, GAG! Of course everyone likes to say *their* dog is “clean”, but I’ve seen not only my own clean dog’s bed, I’ve seen countless other people’s sofas, comforters, and even sheets – sleeping in that is gross! But some people just aren’t very clean people so it doesn’t bother them to sleep in dog filth.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            My dogs get a weekly bath and I have really terrible allergic respiratory issues, so my bedding is washed twice a week. I also wipe them down with EarthBath wipes nearly daily. We are cleaner than most.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            All my dogs sleep in my bed, including my pit bull.

        • GatorGirl

          Oh no! 3 ugly block heads!

          • HerhseyKisses

            Uh oh…bet they were conspiring a plot to take down all humans as this very picture was taken! *going to adopt a Dachshund to protect me since they actual are consistently listed as most aggressive breed*

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            Dachshunds actually scare me. The only dog I’ve ever fostered that has bitten a person (actually, 3 people) was a dachshund, and the only dog that has ever bitten me was a dachshund. So I can see if having one or two bad experiences would allow someone to generalize. But people let small dogs get away with so many undesirable behaviors! The only dog to bite one of my dogs was a Bichon…

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            That one in the middle is a pit bull poser! :-)

          • HerhseyKisses

            She wishes she could be as cool as the Pitties!

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            She’s just as cool!

        • GatorGirl

          Oh and don’t worry! Those dogs doing heroic things will be identified later when they’ve killed their entire families. That’s how it works right?

  • DIANA KASSIR

    As I am a Pit bull victim of one of these “How sweet…” Pit bull types. I wish her good luck that Milo never attacks. Sweet has nothing to do with ‘PREY INSTINCT’ and Pit bulls often attack, not necessarily from aggression but from their genetic prey instincts. Just as (for example) Jack Russell Terrier was bred to kill rats, and is generally excellent at that task, except that Pit bull (types) prey instinct is less discriminate. AND when adopting a Pit-mix, there is no knowing whether that prey instinct is there. Pit bull types are NOT reliably domesticated.
    Please protect us from Pit types, I will die if I have to suffer what I lived through with the last Pit bull (mix) attack, …. and have managed to thwart several
    attack attempts since then.
    Pit bull types are banned in 35 countries around the world.

    • MacaroonMacaroon

      Diana, I am truly sorry you suffered a dog attack. Dogs of all breeds bite/attack people – I fostered a dachshund in the summer of 2014 who bit and drew blood on 3 people (including her adopter) at an adoption event. The only dog that has ever bitten me was also a dachshund. Pit bulls are terriers and like the Jack Russell, are going to exhibit terrier behaviors, including a working drive and the tendency to be aggressive toward other animals (including other dogs, and prey animals). That does NOT mean that most of them are likely to cause harm. I have a Jack Russell and a Pit Bull Terrier. Neither of them have ever bitten a person. My Pit Bull is one of the sweetest dogs ever, and she has no prey drive. She lives with small dogs and has never chased a lizard, squirrel, or cat. She adores every human she meets and plays nicely with many different dogs. I’ve met Milo in person and he is not going to attack anyone either. The vast majority of Pit Bull type dogs (and terriers in general) live peacefully without ever causing harm to a human or another animal.

      A bite from a large dog is obviously going to cause more damage than a bite from a Jack Russell or a Dachshund, or another small breed dog. But they’re all dogs, and dogs sometimes bite. Let’s not lump a whole group of dogs in one “vicious” category. I think dog owners and the general public have a lot of improvements to make, as far as understanding dog behavior and body language. Improved understanding of dog behavior will reduce the number of bites that occur from dogs of ANY breed.

  • DIANA KASSIR

    btw, she should connect with the author of ‘Pit Bulls for Dummies’
    since she posted last month about the incident of her own Pit bull trying to kill
    her beloved Saluki.
    Supposedly the 2 dogs were buddies living well together, then the Pit attacked, & was running around, carrying the unconscious Saluki around by her neck, as the author & family tried to save her.

  • KaD

    It’s not a ‘stereotype’ if it’s REALLY HAPPENING. Pit bulls have been the number ONE canine killer of people since the 1800’s. http://www.fatalpitbullattacks.com

    • HerhseyKisses

      Would love to see a peer-reviewed scientific article supporting this please! Link?

      • Mary Ann Redfern

        Oh, wouldn’t you just prefer to see the REALITY of pit bulls? Bloody, broken victims of what you pit bull people ignorantly assume is a “bite”. No ma’am…pit bulls don’t bite. What pit bulls do is grotesque. You couldn’t handle seeing an “after” picture of a pit bull attack victim. If you own a pit bull, hope your luck holds out because once your pit grabs you or one of your children if you have any, you’re DONE.

        • HerhseyKisses

          If this was the reality, wouldn’t those of us who work with Pit Bulls on a daily basis be the ones to witness this the most? Simple probability.

          • Mary Ann Redfern

            Stay in your pit bull bubble until you are FORCED to face reality, then. Your problem.

          • HerhseyKisses

            Oh Mary Ann, I have faced reality head on. Working in a human identification lab, multiple morgues, and working violent crimes. I am not naive, nor am I out of touch with reality. I have seen far worse than what you post photo shopped pictures of. I pity you for making hasty judgments on those you know nothing about.

        • MacaroonMacaroon

          I worked in a lab for 4 years, assisting with identification of the dead. I have seen, in person, far worse than anything you’ve seen in an internet photo. What humans do to other humans is grotesque.

          My dog loves kids, and we most frequently visit the pediatrics floor of the hospital. She is always welcomed by the kids and their families, who usually say something like, “pit bulls have such an undeserved bad reputation.” People love to see her and she enjoys the job. I wouldn’t take her if she didn’t.

        • Gatorgirl

          Again where is the peer-reviewed article stating that this phenomenon occurs more frequently amongst pit bulls as opposed to other breeds?

  • KaD
    • MacaroonMacaroon

      My pit bull is a therapy dog. She visits patients, visitors, and hospital staff at our local hospital (UF Health) regularly. Everyone loves her and we receive special requests from patients who wish to visit with her.

      • Mary Ann Redfern

        And? What is your point? Your pit hasn’t harmed anyone yet and you are
        keeping your fingers crossed that she never does? How thoughtless of you to put all of those people at risk form your fighting/gripping breed dog. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/2d9f21190c273d79d0fb6618f1ab8be96a6415119373e4ebb7ba000a578e9bb3.jpg

        • MacaroonMacaroon

          I don’t need to cross my fingers, because she has never exhibited any behavior that would cause me to worry about her interactions with people (or other animals). She is an AKC CGC, and has attended basic and intermediate obedience, novice and intermediate tricks, and nosework. She was evaluated by a representative from Alliance of Therapy Dogs and was selected by ATD to become a registered therapy dog. They are clearly confident that she is a fantastic therapy dog volunteer, and so is the hospital at which we volunteer.

          • Banallpits

            And this is why there should be law prohibiting the deadliest dog breed in the world from being “therapy” dogs! Yeah, they are all “fantastic” until they’re not! Your dog knowing a few tricks and passing a CGC (big whoop) does not mean your dog is no longer a pit bull and subject to “go pit”!

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            Dogs don’t just suddenly change fundamental behaviors. My point in citing the CGC and NTD are that we have spent plenty of time with her to thoroughly evaluate her suitability for the volunteer work she does. And an organization like ATD would not take a risk on a dog that did not feel was suitable for the work.

          • Banallpits

            Pit bulls most certainly DO “suddenly change fundamental behaviors” – it happens almost daily. Pit bulls have been model family pets for YEARS before killing the same people they’ve been raised with and loved – then they went right back to being those lovable wiggle butts they always were. At least two family pit bulls that killed family members passed temperament tests AFTER the fatal mauling. There is NO way to evaluate a pit bull to accurate predict if it will attack in the future. Pit bulls “lie” all the time. In order to “prove a point”, you are playing Russian Roulette with others at their weakest point. Shame on you! If you were interested in helping people, instead of trying to prove a point, you’d have a suitable breed for the task.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            Pit bulls are dogs. Same as any other dog. Dog behavior is predictable in all breeds. Should I have a lab? A special needs kid grabbed and squeezed my dog’s face a few weeks ago at Dunkin’ Donuts. She pulled her head away but otherwise remained seated and did nothing else. The lab sitting a few tables away from us, however, jumped up and started barking and lunging when the kid just walked by. Temperament should be evaluated on an individual basis, not on breed.

          • Banallpits

            I think we can all agree pit bulls are “high risk dogs”:

            http://dogbitelaw.com/owners-of-vicious-breeds/personality-characteristics-owners-vicious-breeds

            http://www.animals24-7.org/2013/07/11/the-science-of-how-behavior-is-inherited-in-aggressive-dogs/

            “Just as we cannot make a dog into something the dog has no genetic capacity to be, we cannot prevent a dog from being what the dog is genetically predisposed to be.

            The heritability of abnormal aggression in certain breeds of dogs can no longer be denied.

            But breeders also selected for behavioral conformation. To perform well, a fighting dog had to attack without provocation or warning, and to continue attacking regardless of the response of the other animal. Bull and bear-baiting dogs had to be willing to attack in the absence of the species-specific signs that normally provoke aggression, responding to the mere presence of another animals, and not stopping in response to external stimuli.

            Now that we know exactly which brain abnormalities the breeders of fighting dogs have been selecting, the assertion that this aggression is not heritable is no longer tenable.

            As in the pointer, the husky, the greyhound, and the border collie, the genes of aggressive breeds have been selected so that certain postures and behaviors just simply feel good. These dogs will seek opportunities to execute the behaviors they have been bred for. Because these behaviors are internally motivated and rewarded, they are not subject to extinction. Learning and socialization do not prevent these dogs’ innate behaviors from appearing.

            Because the behavior selected for was impulsive aggression, by definition this behavior will always emerge suddenly and unpredictably.”

            http://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/pit-bulls-gary-wilkes-spring-2010-off-lead.pdf

            http://www.animalbehavioronline.com/dogaggression.html

            “Certain breeds have been selected for enhanced dominance and aggression. Pit bulls and Rottweilers currently receive the most public attention in this regard, and pit bulls have been banned in many locations because they are perceived as being dangerous. While advocates of these breeds claim that maltreatment is a more likely underlying cause of the kind of aggression leading to biting incidents (some of which involve human fatalities), in fact we know that personality is fairly unresponsive to environment.”

            http://www.livescience.com/27145-are-pit-bulls-dangerous.html

            “But do pit bulls deserve their reputation as vicious “attack” dogs? An overwhelming amount of evidence suggests they do.

            It’s worth noting that no matter how these data are arranged — mixed breeds versus pure breeds, injuries versus fatalities — pit bulls consistently rank at the top of the list for attacks, and by a wide margin. (Rottweilers generally rank a distant second.)”

            http://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/1993-dos-donts-concerning-vicious-dogs-donald-clifford.pdf

            http://www.cincinnati.com/story/opinion/contributors/2014/06/29/doctor-says-ban-pit-bulls/11709481/

            ” I can categorically tell you that the problems associated with dog bites are indeed breed-specific.

            Starting about 25 years ago, my colleagues and I started to see disturbingly different types of injuries. Instead of a warning bite, we saw wounds where the flesh was torn from the victim. There were multiple bite wounds covering many different anatomical sites. The attacks were generally unprovoked, persistent and often involved more than one dog. In every instance the dog involved was a pit bull or a pit bull mix.

            Based on my extensive experience, I believe that the risk posed by pit bulls is equivalent to placing a loaded gun with the safety off on the coffee table.”

            http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/surgeon-no-place-for-pit-bulls-rottweilers-around-/nQcq8/

            Unless one is a dog fighter, why would ANYONE choose “the world’s most dangerous dog breed”? With over two hundred dog breeds available, *why* one of these monstors? What is the sick infatuation with these horrible dogs?

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            Sorry, none of this is science. Science tells us that pit bulls are the same as any other dog.

            I didn’t choose my dog for her breed. I actually considered myself a “small dog” person and didn’t really want a medium or large dog of any breed. I simply met her by chance and fell in love with her. And I’m really glad I didn’t let ignorance or fear cloud my judgment of her personality and everything she has to offer.

          • Banallpits

            I think f-ing SCIENTIST are using SCIENCE.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            Swearing is always a good way to get your point across and help others see your view!

            But seriously, if it’s not published in a peer-reviewed journal, it’s not science. I am going with all the legitimate science published on this topic, which says pit bulls are just dogs, people cannot ID breeds, and BSL is rubbish.

          • Mary Ann Redfern

            At least keep your potential mauler muzzled for the sake of those who are in touch with reality regarding fighting/gripping breed dogs….just in case your gripper snaps as so many so called “family” pit bulls have done over the years. You love your pit bull. WE do not. You trust your pit bull. WE do not.

          • Gatorgirl

            Why don’t you let people make their own decisions instead of trying to force people to stay uneducated about the breed?

          • Gatorgirl

            Hi! One of the people infatuated with these horrible dogs. First of all, pit bull type dogs were originally bred as nanny dogs (by breeders who actually know what they are doing). Second of all, people who breed for fight dogs, are criminals who don’t know what they are doing, not breeders. Also, pit bull is not a breed, in fact a group of breeds with similar builds (like hounds).

          • Banallpits

            That is a LIE. A dangerous lie that has gotten dozens of innocent children killed. Pit bulls have NEVER been nanny dogs. Even the pit pimping cult “Bad Rap” has pleaded with its followers to please stop spreading this lie. No real pit bull fancier would EVER make such a ridiculous claim! Silly “fur mommy”! ALL pit bulls are bred for fighting!

          • GatorGirl

            You mean something I found through a basic internet search turned out to be untrue? How strange…
            And to prove your point, you state a lie as well. Good job!

          • GatorGirl

            My aggressive dog, with such a high prey drive, and ready to attack anything in sight.
            I love how 2 pitbull attacks suddenly make it a character trait for the entire breed. Also, like the article stated, most people cannot correctly identify breeds so there is no way to tell what the breed of the dogs actually were.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            Watch out, GatorGirl! He will turn on that cat any moment now! ;-)

          • Mike Stein

            You’re ignorant. It’s obvious that the giraffe in the background is the first to go.

          • Mary Ann Redfern

            You might be shocked to find the risks those pimping for pit bulls are willing to take with others’ lives…seriously.

          • Banallpits

            Why should she be surprised? That’s exactly what *she* is doing.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            As I said, if my dog wasn’t appropriate for, and did not enjoy the job, I wouldn’t take her. I am not endangering anyone. Truly, I am (well, technically my dog is) bettering the lives of people that are hospitalized and hurting and missing their families and pets at home. If I was in the hospital, I would be beyond thrilled to receive a visit from a therapy dog.

          • Banallpits

            So would I but if someone walked in with a pit bull, I would raise bloody hell and tell them to get the F–K out! And they would fare worse walking into the room of one of my loved ones! A dog breed famous for it’s sudden, random violence without provocation or warning, is NOT a suitable therapy dog and I don’t care how many “tests” it has passed – those mean NOTHING with pit bulls. There have been quite a few attacks by therapy pit bulls, as well as *so-called* service pit bulls. You are playing Russian Roulette with people at their weakest just to feed your own ego. There are over 200 other dog breeds, with a wide range of inherent traits and characteristics. There is not one single positive trait found in a pit bull that cannot be found in DOZENS of other breeds, without the inherent danger. Yet you choose the world’s deadliest dog breed as a therapy dog? That’s f–ked up! You people care about no one except yourself and your kid killers. I hate pit bull owners even more than I hate pit bulls.

          • Gatorgirl

            Again what breed would be more suitable? A Labrador like the one that almost attacked a child at Dunkin donuts, like she mentioned above?

          • Banallpits

            EVERY ONE OF THEM that is not a pit bull type dog! Was the Lab a therapy dog?

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            No, he was just a dog sitting with his parent near us at Dunkin’ Donuts. He barked at my dog when we sat at a table, and later lunged and barked at the special needs child, who was simply passing by. My dog sat with the special needs kid for some time and permitted him to hug/kiss/squeeze her. My dog is clearly the more suitable candidate for therapy work.

          • Banallpits

            SOOOO self-absorbed. You pit owners are all alike. You don’t care how many people you endanger. https://itscrap.wordpress.com/2015/05/26/do-pit-bull-owners-qualify-as-terrorists/

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            How is volunteering my time to help others self-absorbed?

          • Banallpits

            I don’t believe for a second you are doing it to help others. I believe that you, like all pit bull owners, are simply using the opportunity to shove pit bulls on the public and “prove a point”. It’s about your ghetto hound, not about “helping others” – otherwise, you wouldn’t have even chose the world’s most dangerous breed as a pet in the first place.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            As stated more than once before, I didn’t choose my dog for her breed. I met her and loved her and wanted to adopt her because she is awesome. I had never even considered a medium to large breed dog before adopting her.

            And I did not adopt her with the intentions of making her a therapy dog. It was suggested to me by two trainers we completed classes with. It’s not like I have a whole lot of spare time, between working/grad school/fostering dogs/volunteering in multiple capacities/spending time with my own dogs and family. But this is a job my dog really enjoys and patients are so excited to see her, and it’s very rewarding.

            My dog did come from a ghetto dogfighting operation, but she is the opposite of ghetto. She has the warmest, gentlest, most inviting personality.

            What are you doing to better your community?

          • Banallpits

            I am a strong believer in giving back to the community and have done so regularly since the 80s. I’ve done a wide range of things. In the most recent years, I’ve done nursing home visits with my (NORMAL) dog, done Supermarketing for seniors, volunteered for local town events, volunteered at dog shows, and fostered and trained unadoptable shelter dogs. I don’t endanger others when I “help”!

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            My dog is also normal and I am not endangering anyone.

            I’m glad to hear you’re contributing beyond sitting behind a computer screen, attacking people and dogs you don’t know anything about. I also foster dogs that were on the euthanasia list at our local shelters and need a space to hang out while they recover from heartworm treatment or another medical condition (several of these have been pit bulls, some catahoulas, a dachshund, an Italian greyhound, a lab mix, a golden mix, and a hound mix). Thank you for your contributions to your community.

          • Gatorgirl

            Please define “normal dog”
            And I also don’t understand how helping unadoptable dogs is any different from what we do. We are not forcing anyone to adopt a dog that they don’t want

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            I always ask if patients would like to visit with my dog before I enter a room. I am not doing anything for my ego – I adopted my dog, took a bunch of training classes, and it was suggested to me by a pending CPDT and a CPDT that my dog would make a great therapy dog. And she is. She brings much happiness to patients, visitors, and the staff at the hospital.

            And as stated previously, a purebred lab lunged and barked at a special needs child that simply walked by, and my dog allowed this child to grab/squeeze/kiss her face. Personality and temperament should be evaluated on an individual basis. Not every lab or golden is a nice dog.

          • raynne storm

            Wow. you have issues don’t you? Spewing rabid hate against a dog breed? Newsflash, there is nothing positive about a hateful human who wants millions of innocent dogs dead for being blocky headed. Thanks for showing the readers here just how screwed up you are in the head with you’re killing agenda and hate.

          • Banallpits
          • MacaroonMacaroon

            Anecdotes don’t support your position. Legitimate, peer-reviewed science would.

          • raynne storm

            Amen.

          • raynne storm

            But there’s not and there is nothing you can do about it.

          • e small

            There are things we are doing. We need to change the laws. And we are working on it.

          • raynne storm

            Yes, laws are being changed. We have had around 40 repeals of bsl and no new enactments in 2015 because people are using common sense and logic with making dangerous dog laws. No more banning specific breeds, that’s pretty much becoming a thing of the past now.

          • e small

            BSL does work, but the pit bull advocacy puts quite a bit of money into repealing laws. Anyone reading can look up a very interesting article called: Newark update – Or a man in a three piece suit, silk tie, two tone wing tips, and a fedora has an “offer you can’t refuse.”

            “Best Friends Animal Society is outrageously committed to pit bull advocacy. Best Friends employs Ledy Vankavage Esq to head their legal department. Ms. Vankavage is a lifelong pit bull owner and registered lobbyist. She has her fingers in every state. Just google the Best Friends Pit Bull Initiatives or anything pit bull related on the Best Friends website. This is too well documented to even bother with linking anything. Ms. Vankavage is a close associate of Jane Berkey and serves on the board of directors of the Animal Farm Foundation (see tax records linked above). Ms. Berkey supports Best Friends efforts to push laws that benefit pit bulls, Berkey pays for faux Tobacco Institute style “research” proving the safety of pit bulls through the National Canine Research Council, a subsidiary of the Animal Farm Foundation (both owned by Jane Berkey), which is then given to Best Friends for use in campaigns to change law. This incestuous and circular connection keeps the money moving and the pit bull propaganda machine humming.

            Show of hands, does anyone still doubt the connection between smoking and cancer? The federal government finally saw through the tobacco industry lies and regulated the stuff. The same has come to pass with chemical industry trade groups. Possibly the tide will turn against professional pit bull advocacy as well.”

            This article can be found on the blog: Scorched Earth, the Politics of Pit Bulls.

          • raynne storm

            I myself am thankful for what all these advocates do. Especially Jane Berkley and Best Friends. You guys just can’t get over the fact that the NCRC is a credible organization that people get info from. You’re assertion that all they do is promote propaganda and keep money flowing hasn’t worked at all for the pro BSL side has it? You all have been screaming the same crap for years and lawmakers are done listening to you. Best friends and AFF contribute real scientific facts about canine behavior and training. My guess is you’ve never owned a bully breed or a pit bull. Until you do, you don’t have a clue about what you are blathering about here. Over 40 bsl repeals and no new enactments in 2015 so far. My guess is there will be many more repeals in 2016.

          • e small

            And I’m so thankful for what the victim advocates do as well. These organizations you mention are putting lots of money into getting BSL repealed. Here is an except from Scorched Earth, the Politics of Pit Bulls

            SATURDAY, APRIL 11, 2015

            Newark update – Or a man in a three piece suit, silk tie, two tone wing tips, and a fedora has an “offer you can’t refuse.”

            “For those who may not be familiar with the Animal Farm Foundation, this is where the money starts. The New York heiress Jane Berkey spends her fortune to promote pit bulls. Lots of wealthy folks might build a children’s hospital, or fund a cancer research project, give a couple of million to their Alma mater. Not Jane, it’s pit bulls, she is the primary donor to the AFF. If you like to read tax forms here is the 2013 Animal Farm Foundation 990. Ms. Berkey contributed $2,850,000 in 2013, $1,500,000 in 2012, and $1,500,000 in 2011.”

            That is a lot of money. I encourage people to look up this article online and draw their own conclusions.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            I’m totally fine with people spending their money wherever they choose. I think it’s great when people donate to animal welfare. And only 2% of all the money donated to charities goes to animal welfare and the environment, so it’s nice that someone finds these causes worthy.

          • e small

            It would be nice if all that money went to a larger proportion of animals, and not just to pit bulls.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            People can spend their money however they please. It’s great that someone cares about pit bulls enough to donate substantially to an organization that helps bully breeds.

          • e small

            Yes, people can spend their money any way they want. Eventually rich people will tire of this, and pit bull victims will still be here, still suffering the effects of the attacks from these dangerous dogs.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            You’ve yet to show they are dangerous, and bully breed haters are in the minority, so I don’t think you’ll be seeing any changes in the direction you are looking to head.

          • e small

            They have been shown to be dangerous. As to whether I’m in the minority or not, it does not matter. I will do the right thing regardless as to popularity, or ‘what everyone else thinks is cool.”

            We’ll see how it goes. Things are always changing in unexpected ways.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            Killing dogs who haven’t done anything wrong isn’t “the right thing.”

          • e small

            Legislation can be many different things. Almost every BSL law has strict spay/neuter injunctions. The idea is not to kill dogs, but to limit attacks. If no pit bulls are bred, there will be no pit bulls to euthanize.

            What is breed-specific legislation (BSL)?
            From DogsBite dot org

            Breed-specific legislation is a type of dangerous dog law. It is defined as any ordinance or policy that pertains to a specific dog breed or several breeds, but does not affect any others. Proponents of breed-specific laws seek to limit public exposure to well-documented dangerous dog breeds by regulating the ownership of them. The objective of breed-specific legislation, which primarily targets pit bulls and their derivatives, is to prevent severe and fatal attacks before they occur.

            I do believe dogs must be euthanized if they attack severely or kill.

            But I feel you are placing bunches of distractions up now. I’m guessing, you love pit bulls. They do kill people at a rate far higher than any other breed. Something needs to be done.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            Having interacted with at least 100 pit bull type dogs this year, and fostering 8 really nice dogs in my home, yes, I am a fan of the bully breeds.

            There is nothing wrong with responsible breeders breeding health-tested, nice-tempered dogs with conformation to the breed standard. The problem is backyard breeders and puppy mills and irresponsible pet owners.

          • e small

            Be careful with your 8 pit bulls. There is a good deal of evidence that they are dangerous.

            Until we can reliably identify the suite of behavioral genes responsible for pit bull aggression and attack behaviors, you are taking a chance. Your 101st pit bull may be different. Or one of your pit bulls can attack, even at 8 years old. There are cases, and enough cases to make people wonder about it.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            There is no credible evidence that they are dangerous; pit bulls that are aggressive toward humans are against the breed standard.

            I don’t have 8 pit bulls, I have fostered 8 dogs that were classified by shelters as pit bulls. One was definitely a hound mix, one was definitely a lab mix. I’m not taking any chances. If a dog I take into my home develops behavioral problems, the issue will be dealt with accordingly.

            These dogs have predictable behaviors just like any other dog. If a dog doesn’t growl before it bites, that’s because the growl has been punished (by a human) and the dog’s warning system has now been taken away. This is pretty unusual, and the dog will surely offer up something else, even something subtle, such as lip-licking, before biting. All dogs offer signals when they are uncomfortable. That being said, all my foster pit bull type dogs have been very tolerant of handling and I’m actually more comfortable with them than the 2 Italian Greyhounds and 1 Dachshund I fostered previously. And one of my catahoula fosters had some behavioral challenges.

          • HerhseyKisses

            The following are excepts from an article in the Journal of Applied Animal Welfare Science (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10888705.2014.895904):

            1. “Our findings indicate a lack of consensus, both between and within the United States and United Kingdom about what constitutes a pit bull terrier.”

            -This study shows the vast variation in breed identification of the sample of dogs. If there is this much variation, how can we safely say that all dogs labeled as American Pit Bull Terriers in bite statistics truly are ABPT’s? Since there is so much variation among professionals in the field, in multiple countries, there is bound to be even more variation in the general public. When a bite occurs, it is usually the bitten individual (a member of the general public) who identifies the breed of dog that bit them to the necessary authorities for reporting.

            -I am sure some of the dogs in all of your statistics are undoubtedly pit bull. I am also sure there are many dogs incorrectly labeled as pit bull, that are not at all. I know a dog personally that is not a pit bull, but is a boxer/lab mix (Boxador) and his owners know this for a fact/have evidence of ancestry. Often times people think this dog is an APBT based on visual ID. If this dog were to bite one of these people who thought this, it would be reported as a bite by an APBT, thus adding to these statistics.

            2. “There can be extreme phenotypic and behavioral variation within a litter sired by the same stud and dam” (Scott & Fuller, 1965).

            -Yet another point that dogs can greatly differ in appearance, even when from the same litter. My dog and her sister are from the same litter, yet have some distinct differences. My dog’s sister has a larger frame, a wider head, and different coat. Her head looks like a pit bull head, while my dog’s head does not. My dog has a slicker coat, like that of a boxer or pit bull, while her sister has a thicker coat like that of a retriever. 2 dogs, same litter. Some major differences.

            -Taking this to another level, not only can dogs differ phenotypically within the same litter, but also behaviorally. Hence the importance of evaluating every dog’s behavior and temperament individually; not based on breed or ancestry.

            3. “Behavioral traits are more likely than a dog’s breed to determine whether a dog is suitable for adoption and also the type of home in which a dog should be place.”

            -Furthermore, agreement that dog’s should be evaluated and placed (or not placed) based on behavioral traits, not breed identification (remember this is often incorrect anyway).

            -For example, my other dog is a chihuahua. If you look up chihuahua breed characteristics, you will find “one person dog.” My dog is a therapy dog at a Hospice Home. If my dog was judged off of his breed as a chihuahua to be attached and only like me as his owner, he would not be a suitable candidate for therapy work as therapy dogs can see multiple patients each day.

            -Let’s work with the situation MacaroonMacaroon provided with her experience at Dunkin Donuts and apply this finding that behavioral traits are needed to best determine placement. Many people consider labs the ideal “family dog”. However, as this lab lunged at a special needs child while unprovoked, it would not be suitable for this individual lab to be placed in a family with special needs children, or potentially children at all. This is established based on behavioral traits, i.e. lunging at child. This does not mean that no lab should ever be placed in a home with children or a special needs child, but rather this individual dog. It would be pretty unfair also to apply this to every lab, as many are great with children.

            -All dogs have unique ancestries, inherent personalities, socialization experiences, and training that add up to the sum of the dog’s main self in day to day interactions. You can have a wonderfully socialized, raised, and bred lab, just as you can a pit bull. You can also have a horrible lab, just as you can a horrible pit bull. It is based on a sum of the aforementioned things, not the breed marked on paperwork.

          • e small

            Your link does not work. Please, can you give me the title of the article? I’m happy to look it up, but the link you gave is dead.

          • HerhseyKisses

            Apologies. It is “Is That Dog a Pit Bull? A Cross-Country Comparison of Perceptions of Shelter Workers Regarding Breed Identification” by CL Hoffman et al.

            JOURNAL OF APPLIED ANIMAL WELFARE SCIENCE
            Volume: 17
            Issue: 4
            Pages: 322-339
            DOI: 10.1080/10888705.2014.895904
            Published: OCT-DEC 2014

          • e small

            Mortality, Mauling, and Maiming by Vicious Dogs
            John K. Bini, MD, Stephen M. Cohn, MD, Shirley M. Acosta, RN, BSN, Marilyn J. McFarland, RN, MS,
            Mark T. Muir, MD, and Joel E. Michalek, PhD; for the TRISAT Clinical Trials Group

          • e small

            There are many more papers indicating the other position. Its always possible to do a study that shows no correlation. That is not usually a good study.

            Form follows function. If all of these maulings and deaths are not from pit bulls, why do the dogs show similar structure? They never look like pugs, or poodles, or Chihuahuas, or collies, or maltese, or spaniels, or greyhounds, or salukis…oh I could go on and on.

            Anyone reading, think about this. If you call a pit bull a boxer or lab mix, it is still a pit bull. Pit bulls were originally bred to kill other animals, including humans.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            Most dogs in the terrier group have prey drive and/or aggression toward other animals. This does not indicate they were bred to kill humans.

          • raynne storm
          • e small

            Hmmm. This is one person’s opinion. A vast killing agenda, indeed. Poor person, they seem scared, not tyrannical.

            And well yes, many people want them euthanized. They are killing people, livestock, and innocent animals. All of us want the breed at least vastly reduced, with legislation protecting our safety.

          • Mary Ann Redfern

            Pit bulls give NO hint that they are going to attack. It is a trait bred into the breed to make it well suited to dog fighting. Your pit will NEVER give you notice that it is about to attack…that’s one of the traits that make pit bulls so dangerous….their UNpredictability. I hope that you at least have a couple million dollars in liability insurance to protect any victims of your pit while doing “therapy” work.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            Provide a peer-reviewed scientific study supporting this variation in dog behavior in one breed, please.

          • Mary Ann Redfern

            Don’t make me laugh..I’m not in the mood to laugh. The history and breeding of the bull and terrier dogs is available at your local or college library. You may find some useful info on the internet regarding the ORIGINAL breeding of the bull and terrier dogs and their history re dog fighting, as that is ALL that they were bred for and used for until around the eary 1980’s. Read up…I didn’t take you to raise.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            I’m familiar with the history of the breed. As I said earlier, they are terriers. Terriers are working dogs. They weren’t originally bred for dog fighting, they were originally bred for bull baiting – when that became “inhumane” and illegal, people decided dog fighting was a good sport. A dog that is aggressive to other dogs is not necessarily (not usually, really) a dog that is aggressive to humans.

          • Mary Ann Redfern

            Bulldogs were bred for bull baiting. The bull and terrier breed was bred originally only a couple of centuries ago or so SPECIFICALLY for dog fighting because the new humane animal laws made it necessary to find a new bloodsport that was easier to hide from the English authorities…bingo, large bulldogs bred with small terriers…the bull and terrier (as the dogmen called the breed, later changed to Staffordshire Bull Terrier).was the ideal dog fighting dog and the rest is bloody pit bull history.

          • Gatorgirl

            This is not even remotely true.

          • Mary Ann Redfern

            You are not even remotely bright.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            Ad hominem attacks are not effective ways to make your point, Mary Ann.

          • e small

            It is true:

            “Of course a large number of dual or double registered AmStaffs/APBT’s are still available that can compete in either UKC or AKC shows!” Dogs of legitimate double registered status are neither better or worse than their single registered kin. However they do offer opportunities in both the major kennel clubs:”

            (From the book:
            American Pit Bull Terriers/American Staffordshire Terriers: Everything about Purchase, Housing, Care, Nutrition, and Health Care
            Joe Stahlkuppe, ‎Michele Earle-Bridges – 2000)

            For anyone who would like to look it up.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            American Bulldog, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, American Pit Bull Terrier, American Bully, and American Staffordshire Terrier are all different breeds, commonly collectively referred to as “pit bulls,” but they are all different.

          • Banallpits

            No, they are not two different breeds. They are the same useless dog registered with two different organizations. Many of them are double registered with BOTH organizations – as an APBT with the UKC AND as an American Staffordshire Terrier with the AKC – the same POS dog with two different breed names!

            http://www.daxtonsfriends.com/why-do-we-call-them-pit-bull-type-dogs/

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            The American Bully and APBT have also been registered as the same, under the UKC, but they aren’t the same dog. A purebred Am Staff and a purebred APBT look very different.

          • Banallpits

            A “purebred” APBT and a purebred Am Staff CAN BE THE SAME DAMN DOG! Countless pits ARE DOUBLE REGISTERED with BOTH kennel clubs. This is a well know fact! Call the freaking kennel clubs and ask them!

          • Mary Ann Redfern

            ALL of the bully breeds in the USA have the blood of their bull and terrier forefathers from England running in their veins no matter what moniker is laid upon them. Semantics will get you exactly nowhere with this issue.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            They’re all related. But they are not all the same breed. Have you seen a Staffordshire Bul Terrier in person? They are very small. The American Bully is a huge, hulky low-rider kind of dog. The APBT is really a medium-sized dog, and the American Bulldog and Am Staff are considerably larger.

          • Mary Ann Redfern

            They ALL have the DNA of their original forefathers bred in England. We would not even have pit bulls in America if they had not first been bred in Staffordshire, England. I don’t see you quibbling about the slight differences in poodles or retrievers. Give it a rest, pit pimper. ENOUGH SAID.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            A lab and a golden and a Chesapeake also look totally different to me, as do the 3 varieties of poodle.

          • Banallpits

            And yet you can count on all three varieties to reliably retrieve your game.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            Not really. I know a poodle and two labs and a golden mix who don’t retrieve naturally, at all.

          • e small

            It does happen. But generally these dogs do retrieve. Also, its easy to figure this out. But sometimes, the puppies do not, and start to retrieve at adulthood.

            And sometimes, out the blue, an 8 year old lab or golden mix might suddenly retrieve something.

            Fortunately, no one is mauled or killed when this happens ;)

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            All the retriever-type dogs I am referencing are adults. And my parents’ adopted golden/lab has bitten two dogs in the past couple of months (they’ve had him since September). And my pit bull has bitten zero in the entire time that I’ve had her (now over a year).

          • e small

            https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal

            “Your logical fallacy is anecdotal. You used a personal experience or an isolated example instead of a sound argument or compelling evidence.

            Its often much easier for people to believe someone’s testimony as opposed to understanding complex data or varying over a continuum. Quantitative scientific measures are almost always more accurate than personal perceptions or experiences, but our inclination is to believe that which is tangible to us and/or the word of someone we trust over a more ‘abstract’ statistical reality.”

            Here are some statistics:

            -In the 10-year period from 2005 to 2014, pit bulls killed 203 Americans, about one citizen every 18 days.

            -By 2017, pit bulls are projected to maul 305 Americans to death since 1998, the year the CDC stopped tracking fatal dog attacks by breed.
            Fatalpitbullattacks.com, 2014, Nonprofits Urge CDC to Resume Tracking Richer Data Set for Children and Adults Disfigured, Maimed and Killed by Dogs, DogsBite.org, 2014

            -In the first eight months of 2011, nearly half of the persons killed by a pit bull was the dog’s owner and primary caretaker.
            2011 Dog Bite Fatalities by DogsBite.org, 2011

            However, its much more likely that the victims survive. Here are some statistics on that:

            -A 2010 study showed that the average cost of a dog bite-related hospital stay was $18,200, about 50% higher than the average injury-related hospital stay.
            Emergency Department Visits and Inpatient Stays Involving Dog Bites, 2008 by AHRQ, 2010

            –In the 3-year period of 2006 to 2008, 18% of all fatal dog attacks occurred off owner property. Pit bulls were responsible for 81% of these attacks.
            Report: U.S. Dog Bite Fatalities January 2006 to December 2008 by DogsBite.org, 2010

            In other words, I hope your pit bull never bites you.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            Most of the accounts here by anti-pit people are anecdotal – people here told me a retriever would be a better therapy dog, and I provided an anecdote about a dog that lunged and barked at a special needs child. Not every dog from a specific breed will or will not be a suitable therapy dog (or suitable retriever, or whatever). Dogs should be evaluated on an individual basis.

            And dogsbite is not a credible source.

          • e small

            DogsBite is a credible source. It isn’t a peer reviewed journal, but that isn’t what we dealing with at the moment.

            How meta of you, replying to my observation of anecdotal evidence, with more anecdotal evidence!

            Pit bulls might or might not not maul and attack people with no provocation. We don’t have enough information to determine which ones will or will not do this. Until the time that we do, I’m not for any pit bulls as service dogs. Its too dangerous.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            It’s not credible. It’s based on media reports.

            Again, people arguing against pit bulls here are providing nothing but anecdotes.

            And my dog is not a service dog. A service dog, emotional support dog, and therapy dog are all different roles.

            I provided you with ample, peer-reviewed evidence above. I have interacted with probably around 100 pit bull type dogs in the last year, and somehow I’ve never been bitten or even concerned that I would be bitten.

          • e small

            Why don’t you do a peer reviewed study? You’d learn a few things about how science works. It would be interesting. You would need to start to get your Ph.D first, but education is a very good idea. I highly encourage it.

            I can’t speak for everyone on the board. Most people do not work in the science fields, and that is ok. Media reports are what we all
            have, because the CDC does not collect data on dog breed. Anyone out there who is concerned that our governmental health organization is collecting a poor data set on a public health threat, please write to your representatives:

            “Call to Action for Health and Safety Officials
            Doctors and researchers must understand that this may be as far as DogsBite.org and Daxton’s Friends can take this issue. Medical associations, including pediatrics and emergency physicians groups are best suited to apply pressure to the CDC to resume tracking a richer data set for these victims, at the very least for human fatality victims. We urge doctors and researchers to continue your studies in this area. At some point, the CDC will no longer be able to sidestep this vital issue.

            Call to Action for Concerned Citizens
            What can a person do to make a difference? Each of you can do what Jeff Borchardt did. Contact your U.S. Representative or Senator and bring this issue to their attention. The CDC is fully aware that they are not providing sufficient information to the American public about this issue, and the CDC, whose mission is to protect America from health, safety and security threats, is turning a blind eye to a known danger that victimizes children the most. Find your congress members.”

            Anyone reading, pit bull advocates often try to discredit DogsBite dot org, but it is hub for good information. Please feel free to give it a visit and come to your own conclusions.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            I have a master’s degree and completed two years of a doctorate before deciding I would prefer to work in applied science. I am not interested in conducting research.

          • e small

            Perhaps you do know about anecdotal vs statistical information then. I am curious as to whether you read the entire paper you gave reference to, or just the abstract. The abstract tells very little about the study.

            Perhaps you are not interested in studies then, reading them, or doing them. If you are going to post them, we need the entire study, not just the abstract.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            I do know about anecdotes, and I don’t understand why all the bully breed haters can put out anecdotes and that is totally cool, but I cannot.

          • e small

            So if everyone was jumping off a cliff…

            I’m not responsible for other people. And other people have their own take on things. You have a university education in the sciences, and yet you think anecdotal evidence is ‘cool’?

            Research you position and come back. If it does not stand up to research, then you are wrong. Its not the end of the world.

            You may think that pit bull victim advocates hate pit bulls. Some of us may, and I understand why that is. Most of us just want the deaths and maulings to stop. We did not wake up one day and decide to hate pit bulls. We are worried about people, family and friends in our communities. We want this to stop. Stop distracting from the topic and get to work.

            Find a way that pit bulls don’t kill people, and I’m gone. I’ve got other things to work on after this. I’m sure you do too.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            You obviously did not read what I wrote. I said “I don’t understand why bully breed haters can put out anecdotes, and that is totally cool (e.g., fine, acceptable) and I cannot”

          • e small

            So you don’t see why you should not?

            Do we need to talk about ethics now? If everyone else is doing something wrong, that does not mean that you should do it also.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            You are here supporting people that support anecdotes. I don’t understand how this is unclear.

          • e small

            I am here supporting victims of pit bull attacks.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            So… anecdotes. All breeds of dog have bite/attack histories. The dogs that have bitten me and that I’ve seen bite other people and other dogs have all been dachshunds. My Jack Russell was bitten by a Bichon.

            Temperament is not dependent upon breed of dog. I can go to my local shelter and pull out a variety of dogs and not be able to predict their behavior based on their breed. I can predict it based on their body language, however. Some pit bulls will have aggressive behavior toward humans, just like some chihuahuas have aggressive behavior toward humans. I’m generally in favor of euthanasia for individual dogs that demonstrate aggression toward humans, unless the dog can be appropriately managed with behavior modification and/or medication, and an appropriate home. If we are culling the pit bull, certainly all the breeds with protective qualities should come before, including the GSD, the doberman, the rottweiler, all of the mastiffs…

          • e small

            Do you know what an anecdote is?

            “Anecdotal evidence is an informal account of evidence in the form of an anecdote. The term is often used in contrast to scientific evidence, as evidence that cannot be investigated using the scientific method. The problem with arguing based on anecdotal evidence is that anecdotal evidence is not necessarily typical; only statistical evidence can determine how typical something is. Misuse of anecdotal evidence is an informal fallacy.”

            If I support pit bull attack victims, that is my personal experience. It cannot ever be statistical evidence. It is a personal account, and is appropriately conveyed as a personal account. You asked me in so many words, why am I here? I answered ;)

            Temperament is dependent on breed of dog. Was your degree in the sciences? Do you know what artificial selection is?

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            I was a skeletal biologist, not that it is relevant. Yes I know what an anecdote is, and yes I am familiar with all forms of selection. Dogs = dogs. That’s it. Have you read the studies on the domesticated foxes in Russia? Now they’re basically dogs. With dog-like temperaments.

          • e small

            Dogs are not just ‘dogs’. They are bred for purposes. I have read the study on foxes in Russia. Its very interesting, and does not prove your point. That study has taken 50 years of breeding, and now there is a somewhat domestic fox. This ‘breed’ of fox looks different than wild foxes and has a different temperament also.

            Now, if we start breeding foxes for various purposes, and maybe foxes that attack other foxes for sport, then we might be able to discuss dangerous foxes.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            The entire terrier group is composed of dogs that frequently exhibit aggression with other dogs, and other animals in general, usually prey-drive and go after little critters like cats or squirrels. This does not mean they exhibit aggression toward people. Should we eliminate all terrier breeds?

            The domestic fox looks and behaves a lot like a dog… at least, compared to wild foxes. Dogs are dogs. Some breeds are bred to work and some are bred to sit in laps. Not every dog is representative of the breed, and in many cases one bad experience will lead someone to have negative associations with an entire group of dogs, even though that dog is not representative of the group in general. Lots of those little lap dogs have aggression/reactivity issues. Should we eliminate toy dogs as well?

          • e small

            That pit bulls contain terrier blood is indisputable. When it is combined with mastiff strength, and polished through selective breeding it is something else again.

            As an analogy, one could use acetone peroxide. Not a dog, but a chemical combination. Don’t try it at home, ok?

          • e small

            Are all terriers killing people?

          • e small

            So now you are blocking my comments? I can still comment above your replies. It does no good to block comments.

            That pit bulls contain terrier blood is indisputable. When it is combined with mastiff strength, and polished through selective breeding it is something else again.

            As an analogy, one could use acetone peroxide. Not a dog, but a chemical combination. Don’t try it at home, ok?

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            Are you talking to me? I have not blocked any comments from anyone, not even the fanatical Mary Ann.

          • e small

            Ok…good for you.

          • e small

            So you’re a skeletal biologist who does not believe in genetics.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            I believe in genetics. And the genetics of all dogs in the terrier group, and all dogs in general, are extremely similar. They’re all dogs.

          • e small

            This is an excerpt from “The Truth About Pit Bulls” The Nanny Dog Myth Revealed:

            “According to a 1908 New York Times article,
            “The old lovers of the bulldog found to their dismay that sometimes a terrier, with only quickness and a pair of punishing jaws to recommend him, would kill a bulldog while the latter was merely hanging on. The bulldog would be brave to the death of course, and would withstand pain that the terrier would never endure, but that was poor consolation when the terrier had killed the dog.
            The dog fighters were, however, as persevering a set of men as were the bull baiters, and they set to work to remodel their favorites for their new occupation. They began to cross their bulldogs with the white English terrier, a breed now practically extinct, but the same in every respect, save color, as the modern Manchester or black-and-tan. The progeny was named the bull terrier, the greatest fighting machine, pound for pound, on four legs. The bull terrier had the courage of the bulldog and the jaws and quickness of the white terrier. Moreover, he has the terrier’s way of fighting. He does not simply take a hold and stay there. He takes a hold and begins to eat his way through and tear and worry. If his first hold doesn’t suit, he takes another. If he gets his adversary by the throat, he will tear out the throat in a minute or so and end the battle.”
            “There is perhaps no more beautiful illustration of the results of artificial selection than is provided in the history of the bulldog. It is a wonderful example of patient and skillful breeding for an object that is not wholly ignoble.
            We can agree to disagree on that last point.”

            So Macaroon you are writing that all terriers are similar? So a Cairn Terrier is like a pit bull?
            “Similar genetics” is a relative term. Humans and dogs share 84 percent of their DNA. Humans and mice share around 90 percent of DNA. Does that make humans more mouse than dog?
            (From Seattle Pi: Animals that Share Human DNA Sequences).

            When you speak about genetics, you need to very specific. Sharing some terrier DNA does not make a dog like another. The genetic differences between Great Danes and Chihuahuas are very slight, but no one would say these dogs are the same.

          • e small

            It is illogical, and yes…very unclear.

            If this is true, then you are supporting someone who is espousing criminal behavior. You are supporting someone who is taking drugs. I’m sure at least one pit bull advocate is doing these things in the world that has commented on these message boards.

            Its not tenable.

            We aren’t personally responsible for what other people post, only our own posts.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            I provided you with numerous peer-reviewed articles to read.

            You are here using shoddy statistics to back up a site that collects media reports to make inaccurate claims about dog attacks in regard to dog breed, frequency of attacks, and who knows what else. The only things anti-bully people have provided as comments to this article, are anecdotes and unverified “statistics.”

          • e small

            It is not shoddy statistics. There are not shoddy statistics. Dog attacks are counted from media reports and there they are :)

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            For anyone reading, Dogsbite was created by a zealous former attack victim, who collects statistics based on media reports. It is not and never will be science.

          • e small

            Anybody interested, just go to DogsBite dot org and read for yourself. It is a collection of information about pit bull attacks. Its not a study in itself, but a hub for information pertaining to dog attack victims. It offers help for dog attack victims as well.

          • e small

            Hmm, about that ample peer reviewed evidence. I’ve been looking into that.

            Human directed aggression in domestic dogs (Canis familiaris): Occurrence in different contexts and risk factors
            School of Veterinary Science, University of Bristol, Bristol, UK

            The consequence for dogs of showing aggression towards people is often euthanasia or relinquishment. Aggression is also a sign of compromised welfare in dogs, and a public health issue for people. The aims of this study were to estimate the numbers of dogs showing aggression to people in three contexts (unfamiliar people on entering, or outside the house, and family members); identify whether these co-occur, and investigate risk factors for aggression in each context using multivariable analyses. In this cross-sectional convenience sample of UK dog owners, aggression (defined as barking, lunging, growling or biting) towards unfamiliar people was more common than towards family members. Most dogs did not show aggression in multiple contexts, suggesting that this behaviour may be a learnt response to situations rather than a general characteristic of individuals. Older owners were less likely to report family directed aggression or aggression to unfamiliar people entering the house than younger ones. Female owners were also less likely to report aggression to visitors. Increasing dog age was associated with increased risk of aggression to unfamiliar people both entering and outside the house. Female neutered dogs had a reduced risk of aggression in all three contexts. Dogs in the Utility and Hounds groups as defined by the UK Kennel Club had an increased risk of aggression to family members compared to cross-breeds, although post hoc analyses identified no specific increased individual breed risks. Gundogs has a reduced risk of aggression to unfamiliar people both entering and outside of the house. Where owners acquired their dog was a risk factor for aggression to household members. Attendance at puppy classes reduced risk of aggression to unfamiliar people both in and out of the house; attending ring-craft classes were associated with reduced risk when outside the house. The use of positive punishment or negative reinforcement based training methods was associated with increased chance of aggression to family and unfamiliar people outside the house. Importantly, for all types of aggression, the variables measured explained a relatively small amount of the variance (<10%) between aggressive and non-aggressive animals, suggesting a much greater importance of factors specific to the experience of individual dogs in the development of aggression. These data suggest that although general characteristics of dogs and owners may be a factor at population level, it would be inappropriate to make assumptions about an individual animal's risk of aggression to people based on characteristics such as breed.

            My problems with this article are that I cannot look at anything but the abstract. I'm sure you must have looked at the entire paper and not just the abstract. Can you please post the methods section?

            i have a potential problem with the experimental design. Its not bad…I just really need to see the entire paper. Studies that go into a complex behavior model need a very large population base. I need to see the population of dogs used, the breed number, the breeds of dogs, and how they ascertained and defined things like positive or negatively reinforced training methods, aggression and non-aggression, how they determined the possibility of a leaned response and not a genetic/environmental interaction, and how many potentially dangerous dog breeds were present in the study.

            For each dog breed, and for many of the outcomes they are looking at, they will need a population minimum of 32 dogs. Depending on their statistical analyses, this might need to be a very large data set to give any kind of statistical (and not anecdotal) or outlier results. I'd love to look at it more.

            That is just to start. Looking at the abstract tells very little. We need the whole paper. Please provide it if you can.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            I don’t need to read it, I’ve read plenty telling me that the dogs I interact with every day are just dogs. You are the one looking for evidence that breed of dog is correlated with attack history. I provided you with a title of a paper, as you requested. If you can’t read it, there are a whole bunch of articles in the ASPCA link that should be available to you.

          • e small

            So you did not read it. Ok. We aren’t going to be discussing articles if you aren’t reading those from your side. If you’re going to talk about articles, you need to know what you are posting.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            I’ve read it previously when I had access to journals through my university. However, I am no longer a student and no longer have access to many journals. Everything I have provided you with, I have at least skimmed at some point within the last year.

          • e small

            .

          • e small

            Yes, the point is, they are all related. They have in their DNA behavioral genes that are at the root of the many severe human and pet maulings and killings.

            This is an except from Taryn Blyth’s article titled-Pit bulls, just like any other dogs?

            “The plain fact of the matter is that all fighting breeds were genetically selected for their propensity to grab, shake and kill other animals, including their own kind. While Staffies and Bull Terriers have subsequently had the benefit of 100 years of selective breeding as pets and not as fighters (which has changed their genetics for the better), Pit Bulls have virtually no history of being bred as pets and so do not have this advantage. To say that Pit Bulls won’t be inclined to fight and do damage when they are triggered is like saying that Border Collies raised right won’t be inclined to herd! As well-known clicker trainer Gary Wilkes says: “To assert that Pit Bulls are only aggressive if you train them to attack is to deny the existence of every other behaviour-specific breed on the planet… try telling a hunter that he paid $10 000 for a finished field pointer that had to be taught to point. He’ll laugh at you!””

            .

          • e small

            Anyone reading and curious, this is some information about this:

            http://www.daxtonsfriends.com/2015/03/why-do-we-call-them-pit-bull-type-dogs/

          • Gatorgirl

            Still not true….

          • Banallpits

            Oh well that certainly settles it!

          • Gatorgirl

            The AKC sets certain standards for dogs, and if they fall into a particular standard, they are classified as part of a breed. If the APBT and the am. Staff are in fact the same, the AKC would have never created the two specific classifications

          • Banallpits

            ~head desk~ The AKC did not create “two different specific classifications”. Jesus f-ing christ! Keep up! Not only do you know nothing about pit bulls, you clear have no knowledge of the kennel clubs. The UKC is the United Kennel Club. The UKC was started *specifically* as a registry for fighting pit bulls. In those days, a pit could not be registered with the UKC until it had won a certain number of fights! They started this club because the AKC refused to acknowledge the breed because they didn’t want to be associated with dog fighting. The dogmen formed their own kennel club. Now the UKC recognizes countless breeds but no serious dog person considers them a legitimate registry. I’ve yet to hear of anyone bragging about their UKC champion! They are the registry for backyard breeders and those who can’t quite cut it at AKC competitions or whose dogs don’t meet the standards of the AKC. As time went on, the AKC, being a business, want a part of the financial action from pit bull registries. They decided they would take the pit bulls but not under that name. They came up with American Staffordshire Terrier (Staffordshire being a mining town in England where they fought dogs down in the pits). Even as recent as 3-4 years ago, the SAME dog could be registered with both organizations under different breed names.
            http://www.daxtonsfriends.com/american-staffordshire-terrier/

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            This isn’t true. I know someone that breeds and shows UKC registered APBTs. They are gorgeous, well-bred, health-tested dogs, are held to the breed standard in the conformation ring, and are not the product of a backyard breeder or dog fighter.

          • Banallpits

            Again, no serious dog show person competes with the UKC. It’s considered a second rate organization by everyone *except* its members! If you’re not a member of it, you generally think of those that are as not being able to do “real” dog shows. I have never been to a UKC event. I have never (nor will I ever) had an UKC registered dog. I am in the dog community and I am in the show community and I am a regular member of several dog training and competing forums and I know the common “perception” of the UKC. This IS definitely their “reputation”.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            I don’t know much about the UKC, but I find the AKC to be an embarrassment. What sort of organization registers a dog like the English Bulldog, which cannot even reproduce or give birth on it’s own? I dislike purposefully bred, non-functional dogs.

          • shaedgirrl99_9

            I see the Daxton idiots have arrived. Smh

          • e small

            What kind and non-sociopathic words!

            For anyone who would like to know the story of Daxton, this is a link:
            http://www.daxtonsfriends.com/meet-dax/

            Even if most normal people disagreed with someone’s position, most would not stoop this low.

          • e small

            This is an interesting article on this subject.

            This is from Daxton’s Friends: Why do we call them “pit bull type dogs”. I’ve also attached an excerpt, for anyone reading an interested:

            http://www.daxtonsfriends.com/2015/03/why-do-we-call-them-pit-bull-type-dogs/

            “We use the term ‘pit bull type dog’ because that is biologically the most accurate term. In order to understand this, you have to look at the biological history of the present day pit bull type dogs. Their history is twofold.

            The bulldog: The bull-baiting, bear-baiting, horse-shredding ‘bulldog’ has existed at least since the reign of Richard III in England (1452 – 1485), when watching ‘bulldogs’ slowly torture bulls, bears, horses and other animals to death was considered normal public entertainment. These dogs were also used to hunt wild boar, not only tracking the boar but engaging directly in killing it, and in dogfighting matches where they were pitted against each other in fights to the death. There were no breed clubs to give these dogs fancy names — they were called simply ‘bulldogs’. The term ‘pit bull’ was an American variation on the same theme, referring to any of the pit fighting bulldog types.

            Until the late 19th century, the only pedigree that mattered for any bulldog was its fighting pedigree – the list of kills it had committed on some other bulldog in the fighting pit. It wasn’t until early in the 20th century, as dogfighting declined, that the breeders of these dogs sought other ways to sell them. They turned to the new kennel clubs, which had been established to cater to the upper class hobby of breeding dogs for shows. After much lobbying, the 1930s saw the registration and re-branding of the pit fighting bulldogs by various kennel clubs, always with a name intended to hide the type’s bloody history (eg, changing this molosser’s name from bulldog to ‘Staffordshire terrier’). Since that first deception, many new breed clubs have arisen, dedicated to producing slight physical variation in the fighting bulldog so as to claim a new pit bull type ‘breed’ all their own (eg, American Bully, Pit Bull XXL, Olde English Bulldogge, American Bulldog).

            All of these dogs in fact come from the same limited gene pool, all of them retaining both the physical and the behavioral traits that have always typified the fighting bulldog. Pasting a new ‘breed’ label on yet another slight variation of the pit fighting bulldog does not change this fact.”

          • Mary Ann Redfern

            ..

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            ATD provides insurance for all therapy dog teams. That is one reason it is so important to be evaluated by and registered with an organization in order to do therapy dog work.

          • Mike Stein

            My favorite among these is Gail Sizemore, backyard breeder of boxers, who made a 4 year old boy stand outside in the cold because he had some sniffles and she didn’t want to get sick. The child somehow found his way into a breeding pen and that’s when he was killed. Similar details can be found in pretty much all of these cases… children left alone, backyard breeders, dogs kept for commercial or protection purposes, etc.

          • Mary Ann Redfern

            Don’t pay heed to Mikey the Sociopath. He shows up from time to time to harass, insult and “rework” the truth. Just ignore him and, mercifully, he will fade away.

          • Mike Stein

            I know. I’m horrible for actually looking at peer reviewed data and reading scientific articles in full. I should just be angry and post pictures on the internet all day long, and not care about context.

          • Mary Ann Redfern

            Oh, yes, give yourself a BIG pat on the back, Mike Stein. Pit bulls are killing 30 to 35 people currently in the USA each year. Pit bulls are mauling hundreds of other humans each year in the USA, some to the point of maiming (loss of body parts). Pit bulls are mauling, maiming and killing thousands of pets and livestock animals each year in the USA. One million pit bulls are being euthanized each year in the USA. Pit bulls are sterilized at a rate of 20% in the USA. Shelters are packed to the rafters with unwanted pit bulls with no place to go and a “no kill” agenda in place that keeps many of them living in shelters for YEARS. Pit bulls are THE most abused breed in the USA because the sort of people that obtain them, many times, are not the sort you would want taking care of a pet rock. Pit bulls, being bred for dog fighting and, therefore, being the breed of choice for dog fighters are being fought from coast to coast more than ever in the history of dog fighting. Pit bulls are being bred in backyards for bucks and are, therefore, disposable dogs..if they can’t sell ’em, they send ’em to the pound or beat them to death. Everything is simply rosy, Mike Stein, in your pit bull “advocacy” program. No need to do a single thing, just sit there on your phone or laptop and tap away.

          • Mike Stein

            Have another hit of meth tootsie.

          • raynne storm

            She’s like an attack dog herself isn’t she? I can’t imagine the insanity going on in her head.

          • Mike Stein

            I wonder if her kids know she’s back in their stash again.

          • Mary Ann Redfern

            ..

          • raynne storm

            Lol :p

          • Mary Ann Redfern

            I shared your amazingly informative post on my Twitter. Round and round and round it goes and where it stops nobody knows.

          • Mike Stein

            Wow. Do you think all 74 followers will see it?

          • Mary Ann Redfern

            You would be amazed how quickly a Tweet can travel round the world. Pit pimpers’ vile comments that I post are a HUGE hit with the Twitter crowd apparently. I spend very little time on Twitter, don’t particularly care for it, but that sh*t travels at the speed of light…so, you’re famous by now.
            Oh, yeah, they make interesting screenshots also.

          • Mike Stein

            Wow. I’m impressed. I mean, someone even retweeted what you wrote to her 252 followers… someone who has tweeted 16k times and has 252 followers, some of which might actually be humans. Clearly the speed of light has nothing on the power of your tweet.

            Also, not to get all internet technical on you, but that’s a facebook screenshot, not twitter.

            Maybe you’re not on meth… maybe it’s just crack.

          • Mary Ann Redfern

            I K N O W it’s a FB screenshot, knuckle dragger. You can’t follow a post with any degree of reasoning ability at ALL, can you dipsh*t?

          • Mike Stein

            I don’t think reasoning ability is the key issue at play here. I think the key issue is you threatening me with the microscopic reach of your Twitter account, demonstrating the power of the threat with a random Facebook screen grab, presumably to show how you’ve learned to post pictures on the Internet, and just in case I was unsure if you actually learned how to post pictures on the Internet, you posted another picture.

            Am I missing something?

            Remember sweetheart, proper etiquette is “puff, puff, pass”, not “puff puff puff puff puff puff puff puff”

          • Mary Ann Redfern

            Stop cluttering up my Yahoo with your drivel. Talking to stupid people is very irritating to me.

          • Mike Stein

            Sweetheart, while I’m sure there are many, many unspeakable things cluttering up your Yahoo, rest comfortably in the knowledge that I am not, nor will I ever be, one of them.

            That being said, if there is someone cluttering up your Yahoo
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9a50e3014505d1dbc28a40620e0fda5b29e08f50ada791610747fe2be12c0fd2.jpg

          • shaedgirrl99_9

            I LOVE when the foamers FINALLY lose composure. Best part of a pro/anti pit discussion… Bwhahahaaa

          • e small

            I’d love to look at peer reviewed data and scientific articles with you.

            Anytime ;)

          • Mary Ann Redfern

            ….

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            It’s not how they’re raised. Socialization during puppyhood plays a factor in behavior, but so does inherent temperament. My dog was confiscated during a dog fighting bust, she was probably used to produce puppies. I don’t know where she was raised, but based on where she was found, it likely wasn’t a nice place. She is just a really, really nice dog.

          • raynne storm

            Why because the truth hurts doesn’t it? Over 20 repeals of BSL this year and no new enactments in 2015. You are failing with your propaganda.

          • Mary Ann Redfern

            Pit pimpers have not been successful this year in having a statewide moratorium on banning pit bulls. Every effort has failed this year at the statewide level. And, might I add, this is not some kind of f’ing chess game with wooden pawns. This is peoples’ and animals’ lives you are sneering about, sociopath. Buy yourself a heart…secondhand if you can’t afford a new one.

            I found this old photo of you (below) before you got old and fat.

          • raynne storm

            Thank you for showing the readers here how insane you are ;)

          • e small

            How exactly is that comment insane? One of about 25 of us may be a sociopath. (Stout, Sociopath Next Door-Its an interesting book if anyone wants to read it) Sociopaths don’t feel empathy, thought the mimic it well. But sometimes, they slip.

            Anyone reading, many sociopaths seem to own pit bulls. There are several studies showing that pit bull owners are more likely to have socially deviant behaivor, including criminal behaviors.

            That does not mean that all pit bull owners are sociopaths. But many seem to be.

            Anyone reading, this is an excerpt from an article by Beth Clifton:

            “Don’t bully my breed, but we will bully the victims”

            As a close friend to many survivors of pit bull attacks and surviving family members of some of the dead whom Joan Kowal memorialized, I have witnessed endless egregious acts of cruelty thrown at them by pit bull owners and advocates. As if it were not horrible enough to experience and deal with all that comes with these attacks, fatal and non-fatal, emotionally, financially, physically and spiritually, there are some very disturbed pit bull owners who have made an around-the-clock mission of maligning and hurting my friends who have lost children, husbands, wives, sisters, and brothers to pit bulls.

            Pit bull advocates even distribute false information about victims and survivors to their employers, seeking to get them fired from their jobs.”

            Anyone reading, also look up Daxton’s Friends, for more personal examples on this type of cruelty. And there is much more out there on the web.

          • raynne storm

            Maryann got arrested for domestic violence. I find it ironic that you accuse pit bull advocates of being criminals when you should be careful who you call sociopaths since they seem to walk among you. It’s public record. How does someone who thinks some dogs are violent breeds, engage in violence themselves? Oh the irony…

            http://www.thetowntalk.com/story/news/local/2014/08/13/rapides-parish-arrests/13977351/?fb_comment_id=710966482308157_980032782068191&comment_id=980007338737402&reply_comment_id=980032782068191#f10dde8aaa9f3

          • e small

            I find it ironic that all you seem to be able to do is accuse people of things they may or may not have actually done. Why is this a concern of yours? We are discussing pit bulls. And yes, it does seem from research as if sociopaths are more likely to own them.

            One sociopathic tactic is to distract from the conversation by defamation of character. I’d be careful, Raynne. One of these days someone may take you to court for it.

          • raynne storm

            It’s public record. Take me to court along with all the others on the internet posting links and screenshots about it on Facebook and disqus. That will be quite a list since Mary Ann fights with all pit bull owners. :)

          • e small

            Why not just try to be a decent person?

          • raynne storm

            Maybe you can take up a collection than for an retainer for an attorney.

          • e small

            Not understanding here. Grammar. I think its redundant though. You discredit everyone who you disagree with, and personally. Its not worth listening to.

            I’m writing that if you are personally stalking people and engaging in this..then it will catch up with you. If you’re just taking other people’s information…is that any better?

          • raynne storm

            As far as state level, didn’t fail in my state where I live. Keep trying to convince yourself that you really care about victims of dog attacks because really you don’t. This is just a hobby for you because you have no positive things going on or to live for.

          • Mary Ann Redfern

            You can’t believe anyone could care about victims of anything BECAUSE you are what’s called a sociopath…no conscience, no empathy, no guilt.

          • e small

            Are you serious? You don’t believe that there are victims of pit bull attacks?

            What planet do you live on?

          • raynne storm

            What planet do you live on that you haven’t learned reading comprehension? Poor Maryann does not advocate for victims. She advocates for attention and could care less about victims of any dog attack.

          • e small

            I’d agree that she advocates for attention. I wonder quite a bit about your reading comprehension. You go ahead and wonder about mine :)

            I’ll make it clear. Pit bulls are dangerous dogs. Anyone reading, the evidence is overwhelming. Check out DogsBite dot org if your are interested.

            Not you Rayenne. I’m writing to the normal people out there.

          • raynne storm

            I hope you do keep writing for all the public to see the hatred and delusion you spew about a dog breed. I’ll make it even more clear for you: any dog can be dangerous, they are animals, they have teeth. Clear enough? Dogsbite is a blog based on one woman’s opinion. There is no irrefrutable data that bully breeds are more dangerous. None. BTW, maryann got arrested here for domestic violence. You pit bull haters have the nicest advocates for BSL working for you don’t you? http://www.thetowntalk.com/story/news/local/2014/08/13/rapides-parish-arrests/13977351/?fb_comment_id=710966482308157_980032782068191&comment_id=980007338737402&reply_comment_id=980032782068191#f10dde8aaa9f3

          • e small

            Hello Raynne, you’re in luck then!

            I plan to keep writing about this. I feel for those people who have been duped by pit bull advocates and as a result have lost a loved one, or had one mauled, been mauled themselves or killed, or had their pets or livestock mauled or killed by these dogs.

            I don’t hate anyone. Even pit bulls. They were bred to kill, and are only dogs. They are still dangerous though. They don’t belong in our neighborhoods, mauling and killing people and pets.

            Anyone reading, please do check out sites like DogsBite dot org. They contain quite a bit of information, not just one person’s opinion.

            And finally Raynne, quit trying to ruin everyone’s reputation that doesn’t agree with you. The problem with trying to fling mud on everyone is that you become less believable each time you try that tactic.

  • HerhseyKisses

    Here is a link to the peer-reviewed scientific study conducted on breed (mis)identification that is cited in the article, if anyone wants to read! :)

    http://sheltermedicine.vetmed.ufl.edu/library/research-studies/current-studies/dog-breeds/

  • Jimosaurus

    Cool. Now somebody needs to do a study to figure out the inexplicable *positive* attitude towards pit bulls.

  • Nevada Ames

    I see three major problems with this study, aside from the authors’ obvious agenda (“We are hoping to teach the public that they are just dogs”) and biased funding sources (the “National Canine Research Council” is a subsidiary of Animal Farm Foundastion, mission statement “securing equal treatment and opportunity for pit bull dogs”).

    1: This study makes strong claims about the validity of identifying pit bulls, yet it did not study the population it is generalizing to. The vast majority of dogs in this study were mixed-up mutts that no one would (or did) confuse with pit bull terriers. The much-touted Victoria Voith studies used the same tactic: perform DNA tests on mostly mixed-up non-pit bull mutts (apples) and then claim that poor performance these tests proves that no one can identify pit bulls (oranges). The only visual ID-vs-DNA study to focus exclusively on pit bulls, and the one with by far the largest sample size of dogs visually identified as pit bulls, found that shelter staff correctly identified dogs as pit bulls or pit bull mixes 96 percent of the time: http://aspcapro.org/blog/2013/09/25/bully-this%E2%80%94-results-are-in%E2%80%A6

    2: The question posed by breed-specific laws isn’t “what breed of dog is that?” It is “is that dog a pit bull or not?” This study was asking people to speculate on possible breeds in a mutt’s background, not whether or not the dog would qualify as a pit bull for legislative purposes. Most BSL defines a pit bull as an American pit bull terrier, American Staffordshire terrier, Staffordshire bull terrier, or any dog that physically resembles the breed standard for one of those breeds moreso than any non-pit bull breed. The vast majority of the dogs in this study don’t meet that criteria (as evidenced by participant responses) and wouldn’t be legislated against. Again, the only study to examine this issue as a yes or no question (is the dog a pit bull/pit bull mix or not) was the ASPCA study, and it found that dogs visually categorized as pit bulls or pit bull mixes were indeed pit bulls or pit bull mixes 96 percent of the time.

    3. The “gold standard” for canine DNA tests is the Wisdom Panel by Mars Veterinary, said to be 70-80 percent accurate for known first-generation crosses and it’s anyone’s guess how accurate it is after that. I’m also not aware of any DNA testing service that tests for the American pit bull terrier. Using a test that isn’t nearly 100 percent accurate and can’t test for the pit bull terrier breed to determine that there’s no such thing as a pit bull terrier strikes me as tautological.

    • Mike Stein

      I’m sorry, what was that ASPCA study investigating? Oh yeah, it was whether or not people would be more or less likely to adopt dogs if they knew it had “pit bull” DNA. What wasn’t it studying? Breed identification.

      Seriously, if your main point is proven to be not even false, but a fat lie, merely by clicking a link you provid and reading a few sentences, it kind of undermines pretty much everything you have to say.

      • Nevada Ames

        Did you even read what you’re responding to? Participants visually categorized 91 dogs as pit bulls or pit bull mixes. Those dogs were then DNA tested to find out what they “really” were. The study was built on the presumption (based on mixed-up mutt studies like this one by UF) that most visually IDed pit bulls aren’t really pit bulls. But researchers actually found the exact opposite result; the ASPCA COULDN’T study the effect of alternate breed labels because it turns out that nearly all of the dogs classified as pit bulls were indeed pit bulls.

        The fact that these researchers weren’t going into this to condemn the validity of breed identification (and only did so indirectly) is a strength of the study. That means the participants had no incentive to deliberately misidentify the dogs, and I would argue that they had an incentive to apply the pit bull breed label liberally, not conservatively. The fact that they still nailed a 96 percent accuracy rate with an N=91 sample size is pretty remarkable, and at the very least it indicates a major difference in the accuracy of the visual categorization of dogs that look like pit bulls as opposed to random mixed-up mutts.

        • Mike Stein

          Yes. I did. Did you? It wasn’t a study on breed ID. Period. It was a study designed to understand adopter preference when a dog was labeled by the shelter as a pit bull or pit bull mix versus having a DNA test declaring the dog to be a pit bull mix. Full stop.

          • Nevada Ames

            Sigh. The study wasn’t INTENDED to study the validity of breed identification, but it analyzed it nonetheless by asking observers to 1) categorize dogs as pit bull/pit type and 2) DNA testing those dogs for breed and 3) publishing the DNA test results. It directly addresses the question of breed ID validity for pit bulls. What don’t you understand about that?

            They weren’t even able to study the effect of non-pit bull breed labels on a pit bull-type dog because 96 percent of the pit bull-type dogs they tested WERE PIT BULLS. Only four out of 91 dogs tested had less than 25 percent pit bull in their backgrounds, and the majority of dogs IDed as pit bulls or pit mixes returned pit bull as their primary breed.

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            What is defined as a “pit bull,” Am Staff? Current DNA tests do not identify the APBT.

          • Nevada Ames

            The ASPCA study defined “pit bull-type” as the Am Staff, Staffy bull, and American bulldog, and a dog’s DNA test had to return at least 25 percent of at least one of those breeds to qualify as an accurately-identified pit bull mix. Most of the dogs in the study returned 50% or more. I agree that not testing for the American pit bull terrier is a major problem for DNA tests and will feel more confident in their results if/when the APBT is ever added to these services’ breed libraries.

          • Mike Stein

            The study didn’t study the validity of breed identification, period. You held it up as “The only visual ID-vs-DNA study to focus exclusively on pit bulls”.

            Furthermore, no study, in and of itself, is definitive. What you have here, however, is a pattern of actual studies on the topic that confirm one another’s results. It’s not just the study in the article, or the Voith study. You have research on the topic of visual breed ID dating back to the 60’s, all of which arrives at the same conclusion. You have recent Stanford University research that showed that a dog’s visual appearance is genetically determined by a phenomenally small number of regions in the genome. Simply put, there is a chain of research from many different sources all of which affirm the same result, and you’re basing your entire argument over a study that isn’t.

          • Nevada Ames

            You have got to be kidding me. Please explain how a study that visually categorizes dogs as pit bulls, DNA tests them for breed, and publishes the results isn’t relevant to the validity of pit bull identification. I’m dying to hear what you have to say. And don’t run around in circles: the original intent of the study had to do with breed labels and desirability, but that doesn’t mean the study didn’t measure the accuracy of breed identification in order to investigate that hypothesis. Clearly and undeniably it did.

            The Voith and Levy studies cannot generalize to pit bulls. Voith and Levy performed their studies on random mixed-up mutts–the vast majority of which weren’t visually classified as pit bulls. Their conclusions apply to a population similar to the population they studied (mixed up mutts) but not a population comprising dogs visually identified as pit bulls.

            A valid study on the accuracy of pit bull identification would focus on dogs visually identified as pit bulls. The ASPCA study is the only study I’m aware of that has done so. It’s also the only study that remotely addresses breed identification in the same way that BSL or dog attack statistics do: by visually sorting dogs into the pit bull or pit bull mix category and then testing how many of them actually fit into that category (just to remind you, it was 96 percent).

          • Mike Stein

            The answer is simple – it’s not a study. Studies employ control groups and methodologies in order to validate their process and therefore their findings and scholarly merit. Studies are reviewed by experts in the field and challenged. The Voith study was peer reviewed, the Levy study was peer reviewed. You may not like them, but the scientific community has accepted them.

            In the meantime, fully 1/3 of the dogs in the UF study were ID’ed or included 25% or more pit bull DNA (far more if you include dogsbite’s or Merritt Clifton’s far extended definition of pit bulls). That’s far beyond a representative sample within the study.

          • Nevada Ames

            OK, so you want to ignore the ASPCA results not because you can prove that the data is inaccurate, not because it’s not relevant, not because the methodology led to invalid results, not because it doesn’t focus on the population we’re discussing, and not because it wasn’t funded by a respected organization and conducted by qualified researchers, but because they haven’t published it? What exactly would they publish? “We tried to study the effects of non-pit bull breed labels on dogs that look like pit bulls, but all the dogs we tested ended up being pit bulls, so we couldn’t really study it. The end”?

            Yes, the UF study includes pit bulls but it cannot generalize to them. It does not distinguish between the accuracy of breed IDs for pit bulls and breed IDs for random mutts nor the rate of false negatives or positives for each. It literally just assumes that every pit bull is misidentified at the same rate as random mutts. That’s not a valid conclusion for a bunch of reasons we’ve already gone over. The study was also conducted and funded by pit bull advocates and made no apparent effort to incentivize correct breed identification among its participants.

          • Mike Stein

            Its very clear that you don’t understand the fundamental purpose of a study. The publishing process reviews the methodology, biases, researcher qualification, which in turn serves as a proxy for data accuracy.

            Even in fulfilling its primary purpose (identifying attitudes about genetic heritage of shelter dogs), the ASPCA study “isn’t”… it’s an experiment, so at best its grounds for an actual study instead of a collection of data.

            To recap: You’ve claimed something was a study, when it wasn’t.
            Now you’re complaining that I’m rejecting a “study” merely because it wasn’t published when the publishing process includes most of the validations you want.

            The thing is, you’re so wrapped up in your hate against pit bulls, and your pit bull advocacy conspiracies that you’ve actually failed to raise two legitimate needs for further research that are right in front of you.

          • Mike Stein

            You claim it’s “The only visual ID-vs-DNA study to focus exclusively on pit bulls”, which it isn’t. The fact is that even if you want to pick apart this study, or the voith studies, there are multiple other studies dating back to the 60’s that all point to the same outcome… that visual breed ID is unreliable. The scientific community has even taken it to the next level – a Stanford University research team broke the genome down and figured out that the reason is because a dog’s physical appearance is controlled by a mere 6 or 7 regions of the canine genome (humans’ appearance is controlled by hundreds).

            https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2010/08/dogs-wide-range-of-physical-traits-controlled-by-small-number-of-genetic-regions-researcher-finds.html

            Oh, and on the topic of genetics, they have found heritable aggression in cocker and springer spaniels, but not pit bulls.

            So while all the science is pointing one way, your argument relies on a single study that isn’t.

          • Nevada Ames

            Yes, other similar studies have included a minority population of dogs visually IDed as pit bulls in their samples, but the vast majority of dogs in these samples were mostly non-pit bull mutts that also weren’t first-generation breed crosses (the accuracy of DNA testing is not known at that stage). Applying conclusions to a target population (pit bulls) markedly different from the one that was studied (non-pit bull mutts), using a test that can’t identify a large segment of your target population (American pit bull terriers) and isn’t known to be accurate for a majority of your sample population (dogs with mixed breed parents) is the very definition of playing it fast and loose.

            The results of such studies generalize to similar populations, but not to a population of dogs that exclusively consists of dogs visually IDed as pit bulls, especially those visually IDed by people with some knowledge of the dog’s background (i.e., a pool of attacking dogs described by their owners as pit bulls). The ASPCA study is methodologically superior in that its sample size consisted of 91 dogs, all of which were visually categorized as pit bulls, shelter staff had access to the actual dogs instead of relying on pictures, and perhaps most importantly, they had no incentive to deliberately misidentify the dogs (as might be the case in the studies funded and conducted by pit bull advocates as lobbying tools).

            The fact that just a few genes control canine appearance does not mean that it is not possible to identify, with general accuracy, a pit bull, a German shepherd, or any other breed of dog. Dogs are so gene-saturated that a purebred population can be the genetic equivalent of a few dozen individuals, and it’s entirely plausible that genes controlling appearance also control behavior through pleiotropy. The Belyaev fox studies and other studies on coat color and behavior in domestic animals suggest that this may be the case.

            “On the topic of genetics, they have found heritable aggression in cocker and springer spaniels, but not pit bulls.”

            …Which is why dogfighters use cocker spaniels and not pit bulls and scoop random dogs off of Craigslist instead of paying thousands of dollars for puppies from proven winners, right?

          • HerhseyKisses

            I, personally, know more people who have been bitten by Cocker Spaniels than Pit Bulls, and I work with Pit Bulls daily. Just want to throw that out there since we seem to be categorizing breeds based on personal anecdotes.

            The fact of the matter is, dogs are animals and they bite. Sure, a smaller dog such as a Dachshund or Chihuahua will do less damage than a larger dog when they do bite do to sheer size. However, we should not generalize an entire breed on these incidents because dogs (and animals) of all breeds, shapes, and sizes bite.

          • gatorgirl

            I have been repeated bitten by greyhounds. I understand that it was the individual dogs, not the greyhound population that was responsible. (And partly my own fault)

  • Travelmate

    First, these DNA tests are not accurate and they like to spit out a few very rare breeds so often it defies logic that so many extremely rare breeds would be out and about randomly mixing with so many other breeds.

  • Liz Adams

    If you can’t identify a pit bull them how can anyone be advocating for them.

    The term Pit Bull is used as a generic term used to describe dogs with similar physical characteristics with a shared bloodline. A “Pit Bull” is one of several breeds including the American Pit Bull Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Bull Terrier, American Bully or any mix. Just like how there are 12 spaniel type dogs or 6 types of retrievers with shared blood line.

    For 25-years appellate courts have ruled that a dog owner of ordinary intelligence can identify a pit bull (See: Ohio v. Anderson, 1991). In addition to this, the high courts have ruled that scientific precision is not required when determining the breed (See: Colorado Dog Fanciers v. Denver, 1991). Yet still the myth persists ad nauseam — pushed by the Pit Bull Propaganda Machine, pit bull advocates, animal groups and more — that it is impossible to identify a pit bull.

    Breed ID is done. (Visually) It’s not rocket science.

    “In fact, John Paul Scott and John L. Fuller carried out a series of selective breeding experiments at the Jackson Laboratories in Bar Harbor, Maine. “By happy chance, their results revealed a simple rule that seems to work. Their general conclusion was that a mixed breed dog is most likely to act like the breed that it most looks like.”

    Thus, the conclusion to be reached is that if it looks like a pit bull, it probably is a pit bull. Which is why most breed-specific legislation is aimed at the “pit bull class” of dogs that includes its close mixes. Pit bull mixes that look a lot like pit bulls have most of the same personality and genetic traits of pure bred pit bulls, and should be regulated the same way.”

    DNA

    Visual tests may be more accurate than the “Mars Wisdom Panel” Breed D.N.A. test, as stated by the company:

    Let’s take a closer look at this myth that a pit bull cannot be identified without the use of DNA tests:

    And that science will begin with the Mars Wisdom DNA test. Let’s see what that company has to say about their DNA test, shall we?

    “Does Wisdom Panel® test for “Pit-bull”?

    The term “Pit-bull” is a bit of a misnomer and does not refer to a single, recognized breed of dog, but rather to a genetically diverse group of breeds which are associated by certain physical traits. Pit-bull-type dogs have historically been bred by combining guarding-type breeds with terriers for certain desired characteristics. As such they may retain many genetic similarities to their original breeds and other closely related breeds.

    Due to the genetic diversity of this group, Mars Veterinary cannot build a DNA profile to genetically identify every dog that may be visually classified as a Pit-bull. When these types of dogs are tested with the Wisdom Panel®, we routinely detect various quantities of the component purebred dogs including the American Staffordshire Terrier, Boston Terrier, Bull Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, Mastiff, Bullmastiff, Boxer, Bulldog, and various other Terriers. Additionally, there are often other breeds outside of the Guard and Terrier groups identified in the mix depending on each dog’s individual ancestry.”

  • HarveMorgan

    The study was funded by a group that has a horse in the race, for Pete’s sake. You think the ones who received that funding would say anything that goes against the philosophy of the funder? Geez. You can take this study with a grain of salt, biased before it even is studied. If the study found differently, it would never be published.

  • sofaqueen

    I got a Pit Bull, even though I’d heard horror stories. Great dog. Sweet, I get why people have one and decide to advocate for the breed. It was in doing so that the reality of these dogs finally sunk in. They just do a whole lot of damage. They don’t go to experienced owners anymore, they are being pulled from shelters and placed with people who don’t understand that a large, strong, athletic terrier needs to be trained and contained.
    The horror stories are getting to me.
    Because foster dogs are being killed.
    And everyone blame the victims. Says the person should have done it differently, or did it wrong?
    No other dog I know of requires that much special handling and that much special fencing and kenneling and separation to be safe.
    They are giant terriers.
    They don’t belong in just any home.
    Marketing them as big love bugs is irrational, and causing real damage to the breed and to people and their pets.
    I wish people would just get real.
    Advocating should involve making sure they go to the right homes, or not at all.
    Id’ rather see them dead in a shelter than dead a few months later after being chained and locked up and mistreated.
    They aren’t for everyone.
    They can be VERY dangerous.
    I love mine, she’s a great dog.

  • MacaroonMacaroon

    The deadly pit bull in her native environment… She wears special pink sunglasses so her prey cannot see her “beady, demonic, soulless eyes,” and a sea turtle pattern collar and leash, so as to appear warm and fuzzy. And a reflective Ruffwear life vest, so that she can dispose of her prey in the ocean, and easily climb back into the boat. A poised and polished killer! Keep an eye out for sailing pit bulls, they are notoriously dangerous.

    • HerhseyKisses

      What a cutie! Glad you are taking proper water-safety precautions :). Love responsible dog owners!

    • e small

      “Deadly pit’, and “polished killer” are not ironic statements for the victims of pit bull attacks.

      Can you imagine how a parent who lost her child to one of these “polished killers” might feel at hearing that?

  • Nathan Richards

    What people who blindly support this breed fail to realize is that it IS in the breeds nature to have these traits. I have a chow chow, who surprisingly many pit bull owning friends show concern towards. When hearing the type of dog i have, they immediately cast a negative opinion about the reputation of chows, but do not like their own dogs being stereotyped. Many pit bull owners do not see the bite/fatality statistics regarding the particular breed, or they refuse to acknowledge them. Now I will not say that my Chow would never harm anyone, because i have seen him become protective of our property and family. However he is my dog, and his behavior with my family may never extend to others outside of that.That is what people need to accept if you are willing to take on the ownership of a potentially dangerous breed of dog. Your pit bull may be ok with cuddling up to your kids. However someone walking through your yard who they do not recognize, can trigger the breeds specific trait of being territorial and protective. Most dogs often exhibit this behavior, and responsible owners need to recognize and accept this. You do own a potential danger,and a potential weapon with a mind of its own, and anticipating particular incidents is something even the most experienced trainers sometimes cannot predict. I do not believe the breed should be banned or restricted. However responsibility and good judgement should always be exercised when owning any dog.

    • MacaroonMacaroon

      It is against the breed standard for pit bulls to show aggression toward humans. I am a pit bull lover and advocate, but I do NOT support dogs of any breed who show aggression toward humans. I don’t pull dogs with aggressive behaviors from shelters and I will advocate for euthanasia if a dog I select (or another dog in our program) develops aggression toward humans.

      http://www.ukcdogs.com/Web.nsf/Breeds/Terrier/AmericanPitBullTerrier

  • Mary Ann Redfern

    Here’s some negative attitudes for you, UF, and rightly so I would say…….

    • Mary Ann Redfern

      Had enough? Say one word about how sweet your pit is and I will unload the rest of the ones I have on download…LOTS MORE even worse than these. Grotesque breed.

      • MacaroonMacaroon

        Go for it, Mary Ann. It’s VERY common for all breeds of terriers to have aggression (or prey drive) toward other (especially small) animals, but this does not translate to aggression toward humans. As I’ve stated several times, pit bulls with aggression toward humans are against the breed standard, and should be euthanized.

        And in general, no matter the breed, I am a believer that pets should be kept separate by crate/room when unattended. Even BFFs can decide they are going to get into a fight based on a nice food item/toy/bed, etc. I can’t tell you how many times my 9 pound Italian Greyhound has growled at my 50 pound Pit Bull, and my Pit Bull runs away every time. And sometimes hides in another room.

        • e small

          That pit bulls contain terrier blood is indisputable. When it is combined with mastiff strength, and polished through selective breeding it is something else again.

          As an analogy, one could use acetone peroxide. Not a dog, but a chemical combination. Don’t try it at home, ok?

          • MacaroonMacaroon

            You’ve yet to produce a paper demonstrating any temperament issues or breed propensity to aggression with these dogs. As I have stated several times now, aggression toward humans is against the breed standard in these dogs – http://www.ukcdogs.com/Web.nsf/Breeds/Terrier/AmericanPitBullTerrier

            “The APBT is not the best choice for a guard
            dog since they are extremely friendly, even with strangers. Aggressive
            behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly
            undesirable.”

            I have awesome pit bulls in my home and always will.

          • e small

            I don’t think I can produce any evidence that would work for you personally. For anyone reading, this is one paper. There are many more that can be found on DogsBite dot org. Please look, educate yourselves. Pit bull are dangerous, the evidence is overwhelming.

            Mortality, Mauling, and Maiming by Vicious Dogs
            John K. Bini, MD, Stephen M. Cohn, MD, Shirley M. Acosta, RN, BSN, Marilyn J. McFarland, RN, MS,
            Mark T. Muir, MD, and Joel E. Michalek, PhD; for the TRISAT Clinical Trials Group

          • MacaroonMacaroon
          • e small

            Macaroon, this is not for you. It is for anyone reading:

            I have several problems with both of these articles. With the first…there are several other problems, but the biggest is her understanding of the word “confirmation bias”.

            For anyone reading, confirmation bias is is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one’s beliefs or hypotheses, while giving disproportionately less consideration to alternative possibilities.

            She writes that its a problem for both sides. I can only write that of course it is! We are human. All people have confirmation bias. The purpose of an experiment is to have an effect, usually a single effect. Many experiments will show this effect over time, supporting a hypothesis, or a theory.

            In other words, yes we have confirmation bias. Our bias does not affect a well designed experiment.

            The authors understanding of science is rudimentary. An example of an effect is that pit bulls are six times more likely to kill people than any other breed. Amateur scientists out there, can you find any evidence supporting that claim? What about news articles? What about events in your life?

            Pit bull advocates insist that there need to be clean pristine studies out there, thousands of them. They ignore the fact that studies are expensive, and science studies are never perfect. For most events that are studied, its impossible to have a pristine lab study. Data must be taken from the field. The results are clear, the pit bull type of dog is the strongest variable for fatalities and killing.

            There might be another variable at work. I’m sure anything is possible. Aliens from another planet might be influencing dogs. Pit bulls might be extremely sensitive to their signals. Perhaps this is part of their ‘nanny dog’ heritage, as with Mary Poppins.
            (Ok, I do love a moment of whimsy)

            Pit bulls are the strongest variable. Pit bulls are bred to kill. Its genetically coded into their behavior.

            I’ve used up enough space on this article. I have alot to say on the other article posted, but perhaps you’d all like to read it yourselves and post what you think of it and we can discuss.

      • raynne storm

        Oh poor Mary Ann, she’s not getting enough attention. #wearethemajority. She really believes she can bully people into killing millions of innocents dogs have done nothing. Along with all the felons and druggies in her BSL group. Have at it.

  • Leonard

    hold on just a minute here. let’s remember the other breeds marked as dangerously aggressive in just a few decades past, and some to this very day:

    -Chow Chow. as silly as it may seem to somebody now, these were hugely feared before the pit bull hysteria took over around the 80s.

    -Shar Pei

    -Akita Inu & American Akita

    -American Bulldog, among other bulldogs

    -Rottweiler

    -Doberman Pinscher, among other pinschers

    -Boxer

    -Dalmatian

    -Alaskan Malamute

    -St. Bernard

    -German Shepherd, for god’s sake.

    I’m only including breeds of comparable size (though as a matter of fact the American Pit Bull Terrier weighs only 40-60 pounds on average, think about that in relation to these breeds above), the list goes on and on and on for small breeds. Dachshunds and Jack Russells are at the very top, if that interests you.

    I’m certain I’ve already outraged somebody by listing a breed they’ve had great experience with, wonderful family memories and irreplaceable companionship. This is not at all a subjective list from myself, this is only going off of a history of public attitudes, media, company policies, legislation, statistics, et cetera. It’s simple enough to confirm for yourself, just google “most aggressive breeds list”, any website. I have not found any of the breeds above to be any more people-aggressive than any other properly raised dog, when raised, socialized, and trained in a way proper for their individual breed.

    Now, going back on the loving experience bit, I am sure everybody here has a splendidly sweet story to tell about owning or living near any one of those breeds. Any of them. You will find many, many people who have had nothing but heartwarming wonders owning any given breed above. As well, searching around, you will also find a large number of people who have found that given breed to be monstrous and have stories or even direct experiences to back them up.

    We all know them in real life too, the hysterical arm-waving lady in the park who swears your 10 year-old, zero-incident-ever, nurturing-towards-kittens Shepherd is not to come within 100 feet of her children. True story. My shep boy just sat there calmly on fully loose leash and didn’t even cock his head at the ruckus she was making.

    You can tell, though, in her head she really believes what she is making my gentle old soul of a dog out to be, some deceptive-appearing beast ready to strike to kill when someone like innocent her gets too close. Poor lady, getting her blood pressure up over nothing, something she heard sensationalized on the news, about a dog who of course was not treated and taught properly at some key point and reacted to something unfortunately, not knowing any other way to get out of the scenario or defend whatever he was trying to defend. Scared to death, no doubt, as any dog is when he goes for a serious bite (besides a dog trained to attack, such as a police or guard dog, of course.) Though there are other situations too, such as a dog who was just not trained at all and thought it reasonable to chase because the person was moving too fast or holding something he wanted.

    ^I doubt she got that notion on Shepherds off the news though, unless it was a very long time ago. As this article states, news stories are much less likely to give breed names now unless they are bull-related, and more sympathy is shown towards a dog who is not already seen as vicious. Think about it; if you see a dog bite reported on the news now, 90% of the time it is one of two options: “Pit Bull attacks”, or simply “dog attacks”.

    Labrador Retrievers have one of the highest numbers of medically treated bite incidents out there, yet you never see “Lab attacks”.

    You may have noticed about Pit Bulls, that they are a breed very popular among aggressive people. As well as simply ignorant people, the uneducated about dogs, and as protection dogs (not put through a proper training program for this). Why? They are strong dogs with often a pretty high prey drive and tendency to get wound up if spurred on. This is true of many, many breeds, you may note. But the Pit Bull strikes an extra chord of fear into people due to their reputation, making them a fine accessory for those wanting to seem intimidating and the like. And they do look pretty harsh when the ears are cut and wearing a spiked harness. Unusual not-conventionally-pretty faces and broad builds, especially when purposely bred to the insane aesthetic point that many in this class are (backyard breeders, guys).

    Vicious cycle. Ill-meaning and uneducated owners take them on, a dog raised by this sort of person behaves accordingly, and due to their being a whole lot of people like this you get a whole lot of pit bulls who grow to act in the archetypal aggressive way because of it.

    It’s not hard to understand. The same would happen of any breed that became very popular in this kind of crowd. You would get a lot of dogs of that breed who act accordingly. A goddamned Golden Retriever can be absolutely zero-mercy vicious in all situations when raised to be so, and I’ve seen such a thing with my own two eyes, and with other classic-sweet-family-pet breeds too.

    Head out for a quick visit to a rescue that works with pits, find a fella that was raised properly from a puppy to be a fine sweet boy, tolerant and loving of all, and you will get exactly that. Toss him a ball, pet him, look into his eyes. His caretakers do the same every day with no issue. After you’ve done that, you can come back and say all pit bulls are killers.

    Doesn’t even have to be raised from a puppy, many, many dogs come in sweet and friendly and even ex fighting dogs can be successfully rehabilitated with the right grounding, exposure and TLC. There is proof in the form of long series of videos all over YouTube and the like.

    A point on fighting dogs: they are raised to fight OTHER DOGS, not humans. They are purposely trained to immediately mellow out when returned to their handler, otherwise it would make no sense and nobody would participate if they thought their own dog would kill them, or their friends standing beside them. There are many documentaries on dog fighting rings, this is standard practice.

    The origin of the breed, American Pit Bull Terrier, by the way; is not much different than that of many, many other breeds of terriers. Animal sport work and as catch dogs. They were not produced as even guard dogs, nothing having to do with attacking humans.

    Research before you condemn an entire breed and other dogs who happen to who bear similarity to it (see: 3 very common breeds that end up abandoned, the labrador, GSD, and boxer, when crossed, bear a great resemblance to a pit bull breed. many other common combinations do as well; a relatively square head, short coat and medium-sized muscular build is ALL it takes to be seen as a pit bull and therefore inherently vicious and undeserving of a loving home nowadays. think about how intensely nonspecific those traits actually are)

    I also find it strange that, *somehow*, there is only ONE breed that is inherently a killing machine and helplessly vicious towards humans. Out of all the thousands and thousands of dog breeds, of all different origins all around the globe, as well as the MANY that came from similar roots as pit bulls and at around the same time too, there is only ONE breed that’s a killer. Hmmmmm. Or at least, only one killer deserving of media sensationalization and lobbying. Doesn’t sound off at all, nah, definitely not “I fall for the attention-grabbing views-are-profits gimmicks media outlets put out”.

    Try volunteering at a shelter for one day out of your life, god knows all the animals there need it.

    • e small

      Doberman Pinschers were responsible for nine mauling deaths of humans between1979 and 1998. Miniature pinchers are responsible for no deaths during that period ;)

      The Shar Pei was responsible for no human deaths during that 20 year period.

      The Akita killed 4 people during that period.

      Chow Chows were responsible for 8 deaths

      The Husky type dog was responsible for 15 human deaths

      The Rottweiler and Rottweiler mix was responsible for 39 human deaths.

      Boxers were responsible for 2 human deaths.

      Dalmations were responsible for 0 deaths during that period.

      Malamutes were responsible for 12 human deaths.

      The Saint Bernard was responsible for 7 human deaths

      The German Shepherd dog and mix were responsible for 17 human deaths.

      Pit bull and pit bull mixes were responsible for 66 human deaths.

      This year…only one year and not a ten year period, pit bulls have been responsible for 32 human deaths already, averaging a death every 2 weeks, just from pit bulls.

      In the 10-year period from 2005 to 2014, pit bulls killed 203 Americans and accounted for 62% of the total recorded deaths (326).

      *Somehow* pit bulls are killing people. Could it be genetics?

      • MacaroonMacaroon

        Assuming these stats are correct (where did they originate?), I’d be curious to know how many Saint Bernards (or whatever) were in existence at that time, as compared with pit bull type dogs (or mixes).

        Obviously a min pin hasn’t killed anyone due to sheer size. Any large dog that bites is going to do a lot more damage than a small dog. Several people that were bitten by my dachshund foster dog at an adoption event were very dismissive of the overarching problem (human aggression). I am quite sure this was because she was only 12 pounds.

  • MacaroonMacaroon

    My wonderful girl with some of her friends <3

    • HerhseyKisses

      Awesome pics!

      • MacaroonMacaroon

        Thank you, Hershey!

  • MacaroonMacaroon

    For those interested in further reading and information, here is the link to the ASPCA’s position statement on breed-specific legislation, which includes numerous peer-reviewed articles: https://www.aspca.org/about-us/aspca-policy-and-position-statements/position-statement-breed-specific-legislation

    And here is the ASPCA’s position statement on pit bulls: https://www.aspca.org/about-us/aspca-policy-and-position-statements/position-statement-pit-bulls

  • MacaroonMacaroon

    This is a link to the entire contents of a great book detailing the history of pit bulls in the media, The Pit Bull Placebo: The Media, Myths, and Politics of Canine Aggression.

    http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/uploaded_files/publications/230603563_Pit%20Bull%20Placebo.pdf

  • Amy Luongo

    Ironic she didn’t feel any the victims killed by pitt bull type dogs didn’t warrant a mention?? Hmmm intersted.

  • Max Laughlin

    What a a load of crap. More lies paid for by anamil farm and pit bull advocates

  • asdfghjkl

    This bs makes me nauseous. Pit bulls are NOT normal dogs wtf are you people on, they are not golden retrievers or Collie’s.

  • StillStandingNow

    Google, “Pit Bull Kissing Booth” and see how fast they rip ENTIRE LIPS off of young girls in a second. Pit bulls kill. YES, KILL more humans than all other breeds combined. In the past 10 years, NO ANIMAL, wild or domestic has killed 1/10 as many humans as pit bulls have.